Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

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Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Mike Miller-4
Maintainers,

I propose that Octave 4.4 should make the default behavior be equivalent
to "octave --no-gui".  This would run Octave as a command-line
interpreter with the Qt toolkit loaded and usable as the default
graphics toolkit.

I also propose that we add a new "--gui" option, possibly with a short
equivalent of "-G" or "-g" or both.  The option "--force-gui" would
remain as an alias for "--gui", can be deprecated and removed
eventually.

Justifications:

* The "octave" command in a terminal would appear to behave as it did in
  3.8 and prior versions of Octave.  It would actually be running as a
  Qt QApplication with full access to the Qt toolkit and runtime, just
  without the GUI.  Users who run Octave in a terminal will get
  consistent behavior, whether their environment is headless or not.

* We switched the default behavior in 4.0 to start the GUI, but that
  default behavior does not actually help most GUI users.  Most GUI
  users are going to click on a launcher that was provided by their
  distribution, and that launcher runs "octave --force-gui".  So what is
  the point of the current default?

* This would clear up the confusion around how to start the GUI.  The
  simple and clear answer would always be "octave --gui".  Today, the
  answer is "if you are in a terminal, just run octave, but if you are
  making a launcher or hitting Alt+F2, then run octave --force-gui".
  This has already been a significant source of confusion among users
  who create their own desktop launchers or menu items.

Impacts:

* This does not impact who I expect are the predominant GUI users at
  all, those who start Octave by clicking on a launcher.  The launcher
  must already use the "--force-gui" option as things stand today.

* This does not impact Windows users at all.  The octave.bat script can
  be updated to accept "--gui" for consistency.  The default behavior
  can remain the same if that makes sense for Windows users.  But that
  logic is entirely within the mxe-octave project, not octave itself.

* This *does* impact terminal users who start Octave from an interactive
  terminal session and expect to get the GUI.  These users would be able
  to get what they want with a shell alias or other simple wrapper.
  Terminal users are also more likely to know what they want and how to
  get it to work (e.g. "octave --help | grep -i gui").

* This *does* impact developers.  To test the GUI, "./run-octave --gui"
  would need to be used.

--
mike


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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
With the little leverage I have, I am 100% pro this change.


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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Bradley Kennedy
In reply to this post by Mike Miller-4

> On 2018-03-13, at 16:42, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Maintainers,
>
> I propose that Octave 4.4 should make the default behavior be equivalent
> to "octave --no-gui".  This would run Octave as a command-line
> interpreter with the Qt toolkit loaded and usable as the default
> graphics toolkit.
>
> I also propose that we add a new "--gui" option, possibly with a short
> equivalent of "-G" or "-g" or both.  The option "--force-gui" would
> remain as an alias for "--gui", can be deprecated and removed
> eventually.
>
> Justifications:
>
> * The "octave" command in a terminal would appear to behave as it did in
>  3.8 and prior versions of Octave.  It would actually be running as a
>  Qt QApplication with full access to the Qt toolkit and runtime, just
>  without the GUI.  Users who run Octave in a terminal will get
>  consistent behavior, whether their environment is headless or not.
>
> * We switched the default behavior in 4.0 to start the GUI, but that
>  default behavior does not actually help most GUI users.  Most GUI
>  users are going to click on a launcher that was provided by their
>  distribution, and that launcher runs "octave --force-gui".  So what is
>  the point of the current default?
>
> * This would clear up the confusion around how to start the GUI.  The
>  simple and clear answer would always be "octave --gui".  Today, the
>  answer is "if you are in a terminal, just run octave, but if you are
>  making a launcher or hitting Alt+F2, then run octave --force-gui".
>  This has already been a significant source of confusion among users
>  who create their own desktop launchers or menu items.
>
> Impacts:
>
> * This does not impact who I expect are the predominant GUI users at
>  all, those who start Octave by clicking on a launcher.  The launcher
>  must already use the "--force-gui" option as things stand today.
>
> * This does not impact Windows users at all.  The octave.bat script can
>  be updated to accept "--gui" for consistency.  The default behavior
>  can remain the same if that makes sense for Windows users.  But that
>  logic is entirely within the mxe-octave project, not octave itself.
>
> * This *does* impact terminal users who start Octave from an interactive
>  terminal session and expect to get the GUI.  These users would be able
>  to get what they want with a shell alias or other simple wrapper.
>  Terminal users are also more likely to know what they want and how to
>  get it to work (e.g. "octave --help | grep -i gui").
>
> * This *does* impact developers.  To test the GUI, "./run-octave --gui"
>  would need to be used.
>
> --
> mike
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Join us March 12-15 at CERN near Geneva
> Switzerland for OctConf 2018.  More info:
> https://wiki.octave.org/OctConf_2018
> ————————————————————


I agree, with most of these reasons.

A lot of my biases for this issue are related to the issue that 4.2.1 GUI seems to crash a lot on Mac which is my daily driver laptop. This change would also be inline with other interactive languages, python, R...

Bradley Kennedy
[hidden email]




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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Carnë Draug
In reply to this post by Mike Miller-4
On 13 March 2018 at 21:42, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Maintainers,
>
> I propose that Octave 4.4 should make the default behavior be equivalent
> to "octave --no-gui".  This would run Octave as a command-line
> interpreter with the Qt toolkit loaded and usable as the default
> graphics toolkit.
>
> I also propose that we add a new "--gui" option, possibly with a short
> equivalent of "-G" or "-g" or both.  The option "--force-gui" would
> remain as an alias for "--gui", can be deprecated and removed
> eventually.
>
> Justifications:
>
> * The "octave" command in a terminal would appear to behave as it did in
>   3.8 and prior versions of Octave.  It would actually be running as a
>   Qt QApplication with full access to the Qt toolkit and runtime, just
>   without the GUI.  Users who run Octave in a terminal will get
>   consistent behavior, whether their environment is headless or not.
>
> * We switched the default behavior in 4.0 to start the GUI, but that
>   default behavior does not actually help most GUI users.  Most GUI
>   users are going to click on a launcher that was provided by their
>   distribution, and that launcher runs "octave --force-gui".  So what is
>   the point of the current default?
>
> * This would clear up the confusion around how to start the GUI.  The
>   simple and clear answer would always be "octave --gui".  Today, the
>   answer is "if you are in a terminal, just run octave, but if you are
>   making a launcher or hitting Alt+F2, then run octave --force-gui".
>   This has already been a significant source of confusion among users
>   who create their own desktop launchers or menu items.
>
> Impacts:
>
> * This does not impact who I expect are the predominant GUI users at
>   all, those who start Octave by clicking on a launcher.  The launcher
>   must already use the "--force-gui" option as things stand today.
>
> * This does not impact Windows users at all.  The octave.bat script can
>   be updated to accept "--gui" for consistency.  The default behavior
>   can remain the same if that makes sense for Windows users.  But that
>   logic is entirely within the mxe-octave project, not octave itself.
>
> * This *does* impact terminal users who start Octave from an interactive
>   terminal session and expect to get the GUI.  These users would be able
>   to get what they want with a shell alias or other simple wrapper.
>   Terminal users are also more likely to know what they want and how to
>   get it to work (e.g. "octave --help | grep -i gui").
>
> * This *does* impact developers.  To test the GUI, "./run-octave --gui"
>   would need to be used.
>
> --
> mike

Hi Mike

We discussed it this morning.  We all agreed this makes a lot of sense
and will simplify our input checks and want it for 4.4.

Carnë


-----------------------------------------
Join us March 12-15 at CERN near Geneva
Switzerland for OctConf 2018.  More info:
https://wiki.octave.org/OctConf_2018
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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

edmund ronald
I understand the arguments and support the decision, but generally I believe that top-level argument defaults should remain fixed for the life of software, that is the Unix philosophy.

Because user scripts depend on the behavior. 

I have hundreds of users I am supporting who run an Octave launch script. 

Edmund

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Carnë Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13 March 2018 at 21:42, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maintainers,
>
> I propose that Octave 4.4 should make the default behavior be equivalent
> to "octave --no-gui".  This would run Octave as a command-line
> interpreter with the Qt toolkit loaded and usable as the default
> graphics toolkit.
>
> I also propose that we add a new "--gui" option, possibly with a short
> equivalent of "-G" or "-g" or both.  The option "--force-gui" would
> remain as an alias for "--gui", can be deprecated and removed
> eventually.
>
> Justifications:
>
> * The "octave" command in a terminal would appear to behave as it did in
>   3.8 and prior versions of Octave.  It would actually be running as a
>   Qt QApplication with full access to the Qt toolkit and runtime, just
>   without the GUI.  Users who run Octave in a terminal will get
>   consistent behavior, whether their environment is headless or not.
>
> * We switched the default behavior in 4.0 to start the GUI, but that
>   default behavior does not actually help most GUI users.  Most GUI
>   users are going to click on a launcher that was provided by their
>   distribution, and that launcher runs "octave --force-gui".  So what is
>   the point of the current default?
>
> * This would clear up the confusion around how to start the GUI.  The
>   simple and clear answer would always be "octave --gui".  Today, the
>   answer is "if you are in a terminal, just run octave, but if you are
>   making a launcher or hitting Alt+F2, then run octave --force-gui".
>   This has already been a significant source of confusion among users
>   who create their own desktop launchers or menu items.
>
> Impacts:
>
> * This does not impact who I expect are the predominant GUI users at
>   all, those who start Octave by clicking on a launcher.  The launcher
>   must already use the "--force-gui" option as things stand today.
>
> * This does not impact Windows users at all.  The octave.bat script can
>   be updated to accept "--gui" for consistency.  The default behavior
>   can remain the same if that makes sense for Windows users.  But that
>   logic is entirely within the mxe-octave project, not octave itself.
>
> * This *does* impact terminal users who start Octave from an interactive
>   terminal session and expect to get the GUI.  These users would be able
>   to get what they want with a shell alias or other simple wrapper.
>   Terminal users are also more likely to know what they want and how to
>   get it to work (e.g. "octave --help | grep -i gui").
>
> * This *does* impact developers.  To test the GUI, "./run-octave --gui"
>   would need to be used.
>
> --
> mike

Hi Mike

We discussed it this morning.  We all agreed this makes a lot of sense
and will simplify our input checks and want it for 4.4.

Carnë


-----------------------------------------
Join us March 12-15 at CERN near Geneva
Switzerland for OctConf 2018.  More info:
https://wiki.octave.org/OctConf_2018
-----------------------------------------



-----------------------------------------
Join us March 12-15 at CERN near Geneva
Switzerland for OctConf 2018.  More info:
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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Bradley Kennedy

On 03/14/2018 07:30 AM, edmund ronald wrote:
I understand the arguments and support the decision, but generally I believe that top-level argument defaults should remain fixed for the life of software, that is the Unix philosophy.

Because user scripts depend on the behavior. 

I have hundreds of users I am supporting who run an Octave launch script. 

Edmund

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Carnë Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13 March 2018 at 21:42, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maintainers,
>
> I propose that Octave 4.4 should make the default behavior be equivalent
> to "octave --no-gui".  This would run Octave as a command-line
> interpreter with the Qt toolkit loaded and usable as the default
> graphics toolkit.
>
> I also propose that we add a new "--gui" option, possibly with a short
> equivalent of "-G" or "-g" or both.  The option "--force-gui" would
> remain as an alias for "--gui", can be deprecated and removed
> eventually.
>
> Justifications:
>
> * The "octave" command in a terminal would appear to behave as it did in
>   3.8 and prior versions of Octave.  It would actually be running as a
>   Qt QApplication with full access to the Qt toolkit and runtime, just
>   without the GUI.  Users who run Octave in a terminal will get
>   consistent behavior, whether their environment is headless or not.
>
> * We switched the default behavior in 4.0 to start the GUI, but that
>   default behavior does not actually help most GUI users.  Most GUI
>   users are going to click on a launcher that was provided by their
>   distribution, and that launcher runs "octave --force-gui".  So what is
>   the point of the current default?
>
> * This would clear up the confusion around how to start the GUI.  The
>   simple and clear answer would always be "octave --gui".  Today, the
>   answer is "if you are in a terminal, just run octave, but if you are
>   making a launcher or hitting Alt+F2, then run octave --force-gui".
>   This has already been a significant source of confusion among users
>   who create their own desktop launchers or menu items.
>
> Impacts:
>
> * This does not impact who I expect are the predominant GUI users at
>   all, those who start Octave by clicking on a launcher.  The launcher
>   must already use the "--force-gui" option as things stand today.
>
> * This does not impact Windows users at all.  The octave.bat script can
>   be updated to accept "--gui" for consistency.  The default behavior
>   can remain the same if that makes sense for Windows users.  But that
>   logic is entirely within the mxe-octave project, not octave itself.
>
> * This *does* impact terminal users who start Octave from an interactive
>   terminal session and expect to get the GUI.  These users would be able
>   to get what they want with a shell alias or other simple wrapper.
>   Terminal users are also more likely to know what they want and how to
>   get it to work (e.g. "octave --help | grep -i gui").
>
> * This *does* impact developers.  To test the GUI, "./run-octave --gui"
>   would need to be used.
>
> --
> mike

Hi Mike

We discussed it this morning.  We all agreed this makes a lot of sense
and will simplify our input checks and want it for 4.4.

Carnë


-----------------------------------------
Join us March 12-15 at CERN near Geneva
Switzerland for OctConf 2018.  More info:
https://wiki.octave.org/OctConf_2018
-----------------------------------------



-----------------------------------------
Join us March 12-15 at CERN near Geneva
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-----------------------------------------
I don't think the Unix philosophy covers that. And we've seen many applications get depreciated command line flags. Besides, most people don't automation with GUI programs. The change is quite trivial for scripts too.
Brad Kennedy
[hidden email]
https://co60.ca


Brad Kennedy
[hidden email]
https://co60.ca


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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Carnë Draug
In reply to this post by edmund ronald
On 14 March 2018 at 12:30, edmund ronald <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I understand the arguments and support the decision, but generally I
> believe that top-level argument defaults should remain fixed for the
> life of software, that is the Unix philosophy.
>
> Because user scripts depend on the behavior.
>
> I have hundreds of users I am supporting who run an Octave launch
> script.
>
> Edmund

Hi Edmund

It's not clear from your email why the proposed change would break
your users scripts.  If they were using '--no-gui' option, then it
will just be ignored and work as before.  If they had a GUI launcher,
then they needed the '--force-gui' option to work reliably and that
option continues to work (it is doing the same as the new '--gui'
option).

Also, I'm not sure about that being anywhere on the Unix philosophy.
However, there is the whole rule of least surprise which asks for sane
defaults and we had the wrong default because it was not suitable for
any of the cases.  GUI launchers still needed the '--force-gui'
option, and cli users needed the '--no-gui' option.

Carnë


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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Carnë Draug
In reply to this post by Carnë Draug
On 14 March 2018 at 11:53, Carnë Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 13 March 2018 at 21:42, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Maintainers,
>>
>> I propose that Octave 4.4 should make the default behavior be equivalent
>> to "octave --no-gui".  This would run Octave as a command-line
>> interpreter with the Qt toolkit loaded and usable as the default
>> graphics toolkit.
>>
>> I also propose that we add a new "--gui" option, possibly with a short
>> equivalent of "-G" or "-g" or both.  The option "--force-gui" would
>> remain as an alias for "--gui", can be deprecated and removed
>> eventually.
>>
>> [...]
>
> Hi Mike
>
> We discussed it this morning.  We all agreed this makes a lot of sense
> and will simplify our input checks and want it for 4.4.
>
> Carnë

This change has now been pushed [1]

[1] http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/a4dc2ef8741c


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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

avlas-2
El dimecres, 14 de març de 2018, a les 12:52:09 EDT, Carnë Draug va escriure:

  On 14 March 2018 at 11:53, Carnë Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
  > On 13 March 2018 at 21:42, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
  >> Maintainers,
  >>
  >> I propose that Octave 4.4 should make the default behavior be equivalent
  >> to "octave --no-gui".  This would run Octave as a command-line
  >> interpreter with the Qt toolkit loaded and usable as the default
  >> graphics toolkit.
  >>
  >> I also propose that we add a new "--gui" option, possibly with a short
  >> equivalent of "-G" or "-g" or both.  The option "--force-gui" would
  >> remain as an alias for "--gui", can be deprecated and removed
  >> eventually.
  >>
  >> [...]
  >
  > Hi Mike
  >
  > We discussed it this morning.  We all agreed this makes a lot of sense
  > and will simplify our input checks and want it for 4.4.
  >
  > Carnë
 
  This change has now been pushed [1]
 
  [1] http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/a4dc2ef8741c

 
Wondering actually if you would consider applying this also to Octave 4.2.2...

....
a.




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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Mike Miller-4
In reply to this post by Carnë Draug
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 17:52:09 +0100, Carnë Draug wrote:
> On 14 March 2018 at 11:53, Carnë Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We discussed it this morning.  We all agreed this makes a lot of sense
> > and will simplify our input checks and want it for 4.4.
> >
> > Carnë
>
> This change has now been pushed [1]
>
> [1] http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/a4dc2ef8741c

Thank you so much for discussing this at OctConf and acting so quickly!
I appreciate all the positive feedback.

I pushed a small change with what I think is better long-term behavior.
I didn't mention "--no-gui" at all because I wanted to keep it
indefinitely as the opposite of "--gui", I think that makes sense.

Now "octave --gui --no-gui" will not start the GUI, and vice versa. I
think this better supports scripts and aliases that want to set a
default, but also allow the command line to override that default.

https://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/4fdb160b47fb

--
mike


-----------------------------------------
Join us March 12-15 at CERN near Geneva
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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

John W. Eaton
Administrator
In reply to this post by avlas-2
On 03/14/2018 11:57 AM, avlas wrote:

> Wondering actually if you would consider applying this also to Octave 4.2.2...

It's too late for that, 4.2.2 is already on ftp.gnu.org.

Unless there is some really fatal flaw that turns up with 4.2.2, there
will be no 4.2.3 release.

jwe



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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Mike Miller-4
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 12:24:29 -0500, John W. Eaton wrote:
> On 03/14/2018 11:57 AM, avlas wrote:
>
> > Wondering actually if you would consider applying this also to Octave 4.2.2...
>
> It's too late for that, 4.2.2 is already on ftp.gnu.org.

This also doesn't seem like an appropriate change for a patch release.

--
mike


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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

edmund ronald
In reply to this post by Mike Miller-4
Is the "--force-gui" option still operant or is it deprecated and being replaced with the "--gui" option? 

Edmund

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:57 PM, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 17:52:09 +0100, Carnë Draug wrote:
> On 14 March 2018 at 11:53, Carnë Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We discussed it this morning.  We all agreed this makes a lot of sense
> > and will simplify our input checks and want it for 4.4.
> >
> > Carnë
>
> This change has now been pushed [1]
>
> [1] http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/a4dc2ef8741c

Thank you so much for discussing this at OctConf and acting so quickly!
I appreciate all the positive feedback.

I pushed a small change with what I think is better long-term behavior.
I didn't mention "--no-gui" at all because I wanted to keep it
indefinitely as the opposite of "--gui", I think that makes sense.

Now "octave --gui --no-gui" will not start the GUI, and vice versa. I
think this better supports scripts and aliases that want to set a
default, but also allow the command line to override that default.

https://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/4fdb160b47fb

--
mike


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-----------------------------------------


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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Carnë Draug
On 14 March 2018 at 20:25, edmund ronald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is the "--force-gui" option still operant or is it deprecated and
> being replaced with the "--gui" option?
>

The old `--force-gui' option still exists and works.  We are not going
to print any warning about it being deprecated because the --gui
option did not exist before.  However, we removed the --force-gui
option from the documentation and will probably remove it eventually,
but not before version 4.8.

Carnë

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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Daniel Sebald
In reply to this post by Mike Miller-4
On 03/14/2018 12:26 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 12:24:29 -0500, John W. Eaton wrote:
>> On 03/14/2018 11:57 AM, avlas wrote:
>>
>>> Wondering actually if you would consider applying this also to Octave 4.2.2...
>>
>> It's too late for that, 4.2.2 is already on ftp.gnu.org.
>
> This also doesn't seem like an appropriate change for a patch release.

I just read the emails for this thread.  I'm not sure what the proper
syntax is supposed to be, but I'm having poor results with the latest
tip, with --no-gui option or no option.  It's as if Octave command line
immediately comes back to the shell prompt.  It looks like Octave has
simply exited after the first line, but then I try again and start
getting the results of what I think are two Octave's running
simultaneously.  The words I type come out wrong, the keyboard seems
slow and unresponsive, then responsive for a bit.  I'll do a complete
rebuild and see if anything changes.

Dan


GNU Octave, version 4.5.0+
Copyright (C) 2016 John W. Eaton and others.
This is free software; see the source code for copying conditions.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  For details, type 'warranty'.

Octave was configured for "x86_64-pc-linux-gnu".

Additional information about Octave is available at http://www.octave.org.

Please contribute if you find this software useful.
For more information, visit http://www.octave.org/get-involved.html

Read http://www.octave.org/bugs.html to learn how to submit bug reports.
For information about changes from previous versions, type 'news'.

octave:1> octave:1>
octave:1>
octave:1> octave:1>
octave:1> octave:1>
octave:1> octave:1>
octave:1> octave:1> octave:1> terror: 'exi' undefined near line 1 column 1
octave:1> xi
error: 'txi' undefined near line 1 column 1
octave:1> ierror: 'etext' undefined near line 1 column 1
octave:1>
ans =  0 + 1i
octave:2> octave:1>
octave:2> octave:1> q
error: 'q' undefined near line 1 column 1
octave:2> quitoctave:1> octave:1> octave:1>
octave:2>
octave:2>
octave:2>
octave:2> exiterror: 't' undefined near line 1 column 1
octave:1>

octave:2>
octave:2> octave:1>
octave:2> octave:1>

octave:2> octave:1> octave:1>
octave:2>
octave:2> octave:1> octave:1> octave:1> octave:1>
octave:2> octave:1> octave:1>
octave:2>
octave:2>
octave:2> octave:1>

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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

Daniel Sebald
On 03/15/2018 09:48 PM, Daniel J Sebald wrote:

> On 03/14/2018 12:26 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 12:24:29 -0500, John W. Eaton wrote:
>>> On 03/14/2018 11:57 AM, avlas wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wondering actually if you would consider applying this also to
>>>> Octave 4.2.2...
>>>
>>> It's too late for that, 4.2.2 is already on ftp.gnu.org.
>>
>> This also doesn't seem like an appropriate change for a patch release.
>
> I just read the emails for this thread.  I'm not sure what the proper
> syntax is supposed to be, but I'm having poor results with the latest
> tip, with --no-gui option or no option.  It's as if Octave command line
> immediately comes back to the shell prompt.  It looks like Octave has
> simply exited after the first line, but then I try again and start
> getting the results of what I think are two Octave's running
> simultaneously.  The words I type come out wrong, the keyboard seems
> slow and unresponsive, then responsive for a bit.  I'll do a complete
> rebuild and see if anything changes.
>
> Dan
>
>
> GNU Octave, version 4.5.0+
> Copyright (C) 2016 John W. Eaton and others.
> This is free software; see the source code for copying conditions.
> There is ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or
> FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  For details, type 'warranty'.
>
> Octave was configured for "x86_64-pc-linux-gnu".
>
> Additional information about Octave is available at http://www.octave.org.
>
> Please contribute if you find this software useful.
> For more information, visit http://www.octave.org/get-involved.html
>
> Read http://www.octave.org/bugs.html to learn how to submit bug reports.
> For information about changes from previous versions, type 'news'.
>
> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:1>
> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:1> octave:1> octave:1> terror: 'exi' undefined near line 1 column 1
> octave:1> xi
> error: 'txi' undefined near line 1 column 1
> octave:1> ierror: 'etext' undefined near line 1 column 1
> octave:1>
> ans =  0 + 1i
> octave:2> octave:1>
> octave:2> octave:1> q
> error: 'q' undefined near line 1 column 1
> octave:2> quitoctave:1> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:2>
> octave:2>
> octave:2>
> octave:2> exiterror: 't' undefined near line 1 column 1
> octave:1>
>
> octave:2>
> octave:2> octave:1>
> octave:2> octave:1>
>
> octave:2> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:2>
> octave:2> octave:1> octave:1> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:2> octave:1> octave:1>
> octave:2>
> octave:2>
> octave:2> octave:1>


I think I've identified the issue.  With the change in meaning of the
no-option version comes a restriction that one shouldn't be able to run
Octave as a background process when there is no option.  So right now,
with the tip there is a difference between

run-octave &

and

run-octave --no-gui &

the former being something many of us will be typing for a while out of
habit.

I created a bug report here:

https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/index.php?53355

Dan

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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

sshah
I support the proposal.

I see a number of problems with octave's gui model.  

First, it makes portability much harder -  gui version has not worked well
on Mac OS.   Homebrew version 4.2.2 builds without gui.

Second, gui is not designed for remote use.  

For example, if you run octave-gui on Amazon AWS on any Linux instance, it
is basically not useable.   X-forwarding works with a little cajoling but
the user experience is poor.  This is because  even with network ping
latency of 30 ms, the user interaction in gui is painful. It does not help
that you have 30 + cores and 10 GB bandwidth for the instance.  

For the young users who grew up in the world of streaming video games, this
experience leaves much to be desired.  By contrast to octave-gui, Jupyter's
model of REST API on a browser remains far more useable under network
latency.  

This latency problem is true for remote VPN users connecting to
organization's private servers as well.

 




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Re: Octave 4.4 Proposal: make --no-gui the default

edmund ronald
My only request is that existing flags be frozen in their semantics and not removed so that user scripts do't get broken. In particular I see no plausible reason to *remove* the force-gui flag.


Edmund

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 10:30 PM, sshah <[hidden email]> wrote:
I support the proposal.

I see a number of problems with octave's gui model.

First, it makes portability much harder -  gui version has not worked well
on Mac OS.   Homebrew version 4.2.2 builds without gui.

Second, gui is not designed for remote use.

For example, if you run octave-gui on Amazon AWS on any Linux instance, it
is basically not useable.   X-forwarding works with a little cajoling but
the user experience is poor.  This is because  even with network ping
latency of 30 ms, the user interaction in gui is painful. It does not help
that you have 30 + cores and 10 GB bandwidth for the instance.

For the young users who grew up in the world of streaming video games, this
experience leaves much to be desired.  By contrast to octave-gui, Jupyter's
model of REST API on a browser remains far more useable under network
latency.

This latency problem is true for remote VPN users connecting to
organization's private servers as well.






--
Sent from: http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Octave-Maintainers-f1638794.html