bottom posting

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
11 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

bottom posting

Francesco Potortì
While I prefer bottom posting myself, and use it almost exclusively for
my personal and professional communication, and while bottom posting is
the standard on this list, please note that it only makes sense if you
trim the messages you answer to.

I can see answers that quote hundreds of lines from previous posts, half
of which are signatures and headers, just to add four lines of response.
That makes no sense and makes reading uselessly difficult.  Bottom
posting is useful if you carefully trim the message, removing the
irrelevant parts and keeping only what's necesasry to follow the thread,
not for archiving purpose.  The archives are ment for archiving.

If you want to use the email message itself for archiving, then top
posting is the way to go.

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.621.3058
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
(entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it

_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

Andreas Weber-6
Hi Francesco,

Am 19.06.2017 um 10:55 schrieb Francesco Potortì:
> While I prefer bottom posting myself, and use it almost exclusively for
> my personal and professional communication, and while bottom posting is
> the standard on this list, please note that it only makes sense if you
> trim the messages you answer to.

what is your target audience for this posting? I guess most of the
regulars also prefer bottom or interleaved (my choice) posting style. My
impression is that 95% of the postings on the help-mailinglist are made
from users who doesn't monitor the list and just want to drop their
answer and get a fast reply. I guess this is your audience but you have
to kindy tell them individually because they don't read other postings...

-- Andy

_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

Francesco Potortì
Francesco Potortì:
>> While I prefer bottom posting myself, and use it almost exclusively for
>> my personal and professional communication, and while bottom posting is
>> the standard on this list, please note that it only makes sense if you
>> trim the messages you answer to.

Andreas Weber:
>what is your target audience for this posting? I guess most of the
>regulars also prefer bottom or interleaved (my choice) posting style. My
>impression is that 95% of the postings on the help-mailinglist are made
>from users who doesn't monitor the list and just want to drop their
>answer and get a fast reply. I guess this is your audience but you have
>to kindy tell them individually because they don't read other postings...

Well, I also see that many regulars answer email after email without
ever trimming anything.  I see posts sent from regulars with hundreds of
lines from previous emails, including headers, signatures and mailing
list footers, that only add few line of answering text at the end.  Such
emails are annoying to read...

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.621.3058
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
(entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it


_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

Przemek Klosowski-7
In reply to this post by Francesco Potortì
On 06/19/2017 04:55 AM, Francesco Potortì wrote:
While I prefer bottom posting myself, and use it almost exclusively for
my personal and professional communication, and while bottom posting is
the standard on this list, please note that it only makes sense if you
trim the messages you answer to.
Thank you for writing this Public Service Announcement. It is well spoken, and worth keeping around to revisit when the busy life stands in the way of careful editing we all know we should engage in. This is not only for the sake of others: I find that judicious editing of the quotes help me write, by organizing the thought and writing process.

BTW, at the risk of being Captain Obvious, I remind that most email clients, including the mobile ones, do the right thing if you drag-mark the relevant pieces of the mail you're responding to: they include only the marked pieces and position the cursor below them rather than at the default top.
_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

Oliver Heimlich
Hi Cpt. Obvious,

I am writing this reply from the default mail client on my mobile device. I can't even select parts of your original mail.

Also I can't change the posting style and the program doesn't add prefixes ">” for the original message.

The only options that I have is:
  • Install an extra mail client for this mailing list. I want to keep the current program for its other features.
  • Don't answer messages on the mailing list until I return home, where I have a software which supports the interleaved style.
  • Use top posting like I do now, which is not compatible with the other styles.

So what should I do?

Oliver


Gesendet: 23. Juni 2017 5:28 nachm.
Betreff: Re: bottom posting

On 06/19/2017 04:55 AM, Francesco Potortì wrote:
While I prefer bottom posting myself, and use it almost exclusively for
my personal and professional communication, and while bottom posting is
the standard on this list, please note that it only makes sense if you
trim the messages you answer to.
Thank you for writing this Public Service Announcement. It is well spoken, and worth keeping around to revisit when the busy life stands in the way of careful editing we all know we should engage in. This is not only for the sake of others: I find that judicious editing of the quotes help me write, by organizing the thought and writing process.

BTW, at the risk of being Captain Obvious, I remind that most email clients, including the mobile ones, do the right thing if you drag-mark the relevant pieces of the mail you're responding to: they include only the marked pieces and position the cursor below them rather than at the default top.

_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

NJank
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Oliver Heimlich <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Cpt. Obvious,

I am writing this reply from the default mail client on my mobile device. I can't even select parts of your original mail.

I don't remember how old this is, but it's relevant, especially the Q&A demonstration at the end. maybe we could set a bot to default reply with the link to anyone topposting:

"Top Posting and Bottom Posting"

Regarding email clients, since we know that Google controls all things Internet: Gmail, along with it's standard use of conversation view, implemented automatic quoted text hiding.  This was useful since in a conversation view you'd see the same text a dozen times. When you hit reply, you're taken to a blank reply dialog, with a little three dots icon at the bottom. clicking those dots reveals all of the quoted text, indented if your in RT mode, > if you're in plain text mode. It will even give multiple sections of <...> if it sees a match. It now does this the same way in the mobile app.

We've had some posters using gmail not even know the <...>  was there to click on.  The quote hiding fixes many of the problems described in the link above _as long as_ you're viewing the email in conversation mode. It effectively automates the desired effects of bottom-posting. If everyone in the world used gmail, or 'quote hiding conversation mode' email clients, the issue would disappear.

In gmail, replying to any group wanting bottom posting requires clicking the <...>, highlighting all the text you don't want to requote, then deleting and appending your reply.  This is easy enough on a desktop.  It's quite annoying on a mobile touchscreen. Requests for a default bottom-posting option on Google help forums has gone the way 99% of requests go on Google help forums. Also, most other email client users aren't given such convenient options. New users would have no way of knowing this group's conventions.

The result:  expect all new users to toppost. expect all long time users to have to ask new users to bottom post. expect there to be many conversations with long repeat quotes. and expect there to be periodic musing conversations about top and bottom posting.

nick j

_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

RE: bottom posting

Allen.Windhorn-3
Nick et al.,

Just to perpetuate the thread a little longer:

From: Help-octave
[mailto:help-octave-bounces+allen.windhorn=[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Nicholas Jankowski

> ...Also, most other email client users aren't given such convenient
> options...

...like those of us who have to use Outlook.  <RANT> Outlook actively
tries to prevent you from bottom posting (in HTML mode, which it tries
to make you use for replies, it won't allow insertion of reply text
between or below the quoted text).  So I have to manually switch each
and every reply to text mode, then manually edit it to insert the ">" in
the quoted text.  Also, as soon as I hit "send" it removes all of the
line breaks I have carefully inserted in my reply. And it munges up the
headers (see above, which I didn't edit). </rant>  So I usually just
copy the message to Emacs in message mode and edit it, then paste it
back into Outlook.  Doing email on a VAX using Pine was much faster.

So I don't really care if people top-post, at least for short messages (I
do it myself at work when I'm in a hurry).  But I don't on forums, as a
matter of principle, even though it's a lost cause.

Regards,
Allen
_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

NJank
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:51 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick et al.,

Just to perpetuate the thread a little longer:

From: Help-octave
[mailto:[hidden email]=[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Nicholas Jankowski
 
...like those of us who have to use Outlook. 
 
But I don't on forums, as a
matter of principle, even though it's a lost cause.


I'll raise my next beer in your honor, good sir

_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

Mike Miller-4
In reply to this post by NJank
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 14:23:13 -0400, Nicholas Jankowski wrote:
> The result:  expect all new users to toppost. expect all long time users to
> have to ask new users to bottom post. expect there to be many conversations
> with long repeat quotes. and expect there to be periodic musing
> conversations about top and bottom posting.

Perfect summation, thanks :)

People who have been doing mailing lists for years or decades tend to
bottom-post, cut and quote judiciously, minimize non-ASCII content, and
reply to the list, assuming everyone is subscribed.

We should be very tolerant of new users who aren't familiar with these
cultural norms, but encourage them to consider adopting them if they
hang around the community for more than one question or discussion.

I am personally done with admonishing people for not bottom-posting,
there are much bigger things to worry about.

--
mike

_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

Francesco Potortì
In reply to this post by Oliver Heimlich
>I am writing this reply from the default mail client on my mobile
>device. I can't even select parts of your original mail.
>
>Also I can't change the posting style and the program doesn't add
>prefixes ">” for the original message.

Wow.  Which program is it?

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.621.3058
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
(entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it


_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: bottom posting

Isak Delberth Davids
In reply to this post by Mike Miller-4

> People who have been doing mailing lists for years or decades tend to bottom-post

My two cents: On this dynamic planet, we have adjusted rules to adopt to newer inventions, developments and trends.

For example, when cellular phones came, they were (at least in my institution) totally forbidden to be brought into any library. Because at that time, the sole purpose was communicating to others. But now, we have realized that academic work can be greatly be enhanced by smart devises --- say via data storage, ebooks, computing software, etc. Hence, the rule gets relaxed and improved --- all electronic devices must be kept in silent mode in the library.

Cheers!

On 23 June 2017 at 21:04, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 14:23:13 -0400, Nicholas Jankowski wrote:
> The result:  expect all new users to toppost. expect all long time users to
> have to ask new users to bottom post. expect there to be many conversations
> with long repeat quotes. and expect there to be periodic musing
> conversations about top and bottom posting.

Perfect summation, thanks :)

People who have been doing mailing lists for years or decades tend to
bottom-post, cut and quote judiciously, minimize non-ASCII content, and
reply to the list, assuming everyone is subscribed.

We should be very tolerant of new users who aren't familiar with these
cultural norms, but encourage them to consider adopting them if they
hang around the community for more than one question or discussion.

I am personally done with admonishing people for not bottom-posting,
there are much bigger things to worry about.

--
mike

_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave


_______________________________________________
Help-octave mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
Loading...