Nabble issues

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Nabble issues

PhilipNienhuis
Hi,

Since a little while it seems to be impossible to either post or reply
to messages in the help and maintainers mailing lists through Nabble.
I'm not subscribed to any of the Octave mailing lists (to cut down on
e-mail volumes) and Nabble was AFAIK the only way to easily respond to
e.g. requests for help.
These days, when trying to reply or enter a new post, I'm taken to a
page where I can plea for permission (see attached pic), even though I'm
logged in (see attached pic).

In addition, Nabble's future seems to be uncertain, see:
http://support.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Nabble-td7605923.html

Is there any other fairly convenient way to respond to mailing list
postings, other than e.g., copying messages by hand into a new email as
quote and morphing them into a sort of makeshift reply? (that, as a
consequence, isn't absorbed into the thread)

While I wouldn't want to do away with mailing lists IMO the concept is
becoming more and more outdated. I think a forum would be a better way
to communicate about help requests or maintenance issues. No need to
subscribe, maybe only a filter to keep bots out.
Are there viable and really free (+ free of privacy-issues) forum-like
alternatives for Nabble?

Thanks

Philip

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Re: Nabble issues

nrjank
Administrator
In addition, Nabble's future seems to be uncertain, see:
http://support.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Nabble-td7605923.html


well, not overly surprising.  while gnu.org does maintain a list archive [1] and there is a reply-to button that I assume uses a mailto: link, it doesn't quote or carry over any useful message headers (actually, I don't think the list uses any thread linking headers). So that's sub-optimal, but possibly provides a minimal solution for you.

there was a 'make a forum' discussion last year [2], but it sort of fizzled. when yahoo groups closed shop a number moved over to groups.io.  that acts as a fairly good mailing list / forum bridge.  I've been told that google groups can supposedly serve as a mailing list archive / portal interface. But haven't tried that since a number of mailing lists left it when they changed their operating mode from the old usenet nntp model. 



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Re: Nabble issues

PhilipNienhuis
Nicholas Jankowski wrote:

>     In addition, Nabble's future seems to be uncertain, see:
>     http://support.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Nabble-td7605923.html
>
>
> well, not overly surprising.  while gnu.org <http://gnu.org> does
> maintain a list archive [1] and there is a reply-to button that I assume
> uses a mailto: link, it doesn't quote or carry over any useful message
> headers (actually, I don't think the list uses any thread linking
> headers). So that's sub-optimal, but possibly provides a minimal
> solution for you.
>
> there was a 'make a forum' discussion last year [2], but it sort of
> fizzled. when yahoo groups closed shop a number moved over to groups.io
> <http://groups.io>.  that acts as a fairly good mailing list / forum
> bridge.  I've been told that google groups can supposedly serve as a
> mailing list archive / portal interface. But haven't tried that since a
> number of mailing lists left it when they changed their operating mode
> from the old usenet nntp model.
>
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/,
> [2]
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/2019-12/msg00144.html

Thanks Nick.

Yeah I know the gnu.org ML archive, in fact that's what I use to browse
the MLs (also the bug and patch tracker archives).
The reply button's functionality is rudimentary at best :-) OTOH the
search functionality is usable.

Google groups seem to have a taint with it that many OSS communities I
was/are involved with don't like; same for yahoo. Another issue there
was retention time for postings, esp. in the usenet times.

I do remember last year's discussion and a few others in years gone by.
These initiatives usually stall as soon as it emerges that it also
requires commitment for responsibilities like moderating, being
accountable for the provider, etc. that no one here is willing to pick
up. I'll blame no one, I have no interest in (nor time for) that stuff
either. What brings us together is enthusiasm for code development, not
for mundane stuff like forum administration.

Well, I think I'll have to make do with the gnu.org "reply" button for
the foreseeable future :-)
Hopefully someone will come up with a better alternative, who knows.

Philip

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Re: Nabble issues --> Discourse

siko1056
On 6/25/20 7:03 AM, Philip Nienhuis wrote:

> Nicholas Jankowski wrote:
>>     In addition, Nabble's future seems to be uncertain, see:
>>     http://support.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Nabble-td7605923.html
>>
>>
>> well, not overly surprising.  while gnu.org <http://gnu.org> does
>> maintain a list archive [1] and there is a reply-to button that I
>> assume uses a mailto: link, it doesn't quote or carry over any useful
>> message headers (actually, I don't think the list uses any thread
>> linking headers). So that's sub-optimal, but possibly provides a
>> minimal solution for you.
>>
>> there was a 'make a forum' discussion last year [2], but it sort of
>> fizzled. when yahoo groups closed shop a number moved over to
>> groups.io <http://groups.io>.  that acts as a fairly good mailing list
>> / forum bridge.  I've been told that google groups can supposedly
>> serve as a mailing list archive / portal interface. But haven't tried
>> that since a number of mailing lists left it when they changed their
>> operating mode from the old usenet nntp model.
>>
>
> Thanks Nick.
>
> Yeah I know the gnu.org ML archive, in fact that's what I use to browse
> the MLs (also the bug and patch tracker archives).
> The reply button's functionality is rudimentary at best :-) OTOH the
> search functionality is usable.
>
> Google groups seem to have a taint with it that many OSS communities I
> was/are involved with don't like; same for yahoo. Another issue there
> was retention time for postings, esp. in the usenet times.
>
> I do remember last year's discussion and a few others in years gone by.
> These initiatives usually stall as soon as it emerges that it also
> requires commitment for responsibilities like moderating, being
> accountable for the provider, etc. that no one here is willing to pick
> up. I'll blame no one, I have no interest in (nor time for) that stuff
> either. What brings us together is enthusiasm for code development, not
> for mundane stuff like forum administration.
>
> Well, I think I'll have to make do with the gnu.org "reply" button for
> the foreseeable future :-)
> Hopefully someone will come up with a better alternative, who knows.
>
> Philip
>


Since the last discussion [1,2,3], I think Discourse is the way to go
for Octave to facilitate conversations on the help and maintainer lists,
especially for new users.

Discourse covers all previously demanded features [4], including e-mail
interaction.  On the con side, it is "difficult" to host it on Octave's
own infrastructure (which seems incapable of doing this).

On the pro side, the company developing and hosting Discourse offers
free hosting for FLOSS projects [5,6].  Checking their requirements,
Octave seems suitable to apply for their program.  We can exit their
program at any time (message export, no vendor lock-in).

If there are no strong objections against it, I would like to create and
manage

  https://octave.discourse.group

and advertise it on Octave homepage, etc. after a short test period of
about a week or so.

Kai

[1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/,
[2]
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/2019-12/msg00144.html
[3] https://wiki.octave.org/Forum_for_GNU_Octave
[4] https://www.discourse.org/features
[5] https://blog.discourse.org/2018/11/free-hosting-for-open-source-v2
[6] https://free.discourse.group/

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Re: Nabble issues --> Discourse

Mike Miller-4
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:51:20 +0900, Kai Torben Ohlhus wrote:
> If there are no strong objections against it, I would like to create and
> manage
>
>   https://octave.discourse.group

Yes please :)

--
mike

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Re: Nabble issues --> Discourse

siko1056
On 6/25/20 2:44 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:51:20 +0900, Kai Torben Ohlhus wrote:
>> If there are no strong objections against it, I would like to create and
>> manage
>>
>>   https://octave.discourse.group
>
> Yes please :)
>

Thank you for your response, Mike.  Let's give it a try =)

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Discourse - Free hosting plan for GNU Octave
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:43:07 +0000
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email], [hidden email]



Hi, I’m writing because you entered your information at
https://free.discourse.group and signed up for our Free Hosting plan. If
your application is approved, your site should be provisioned within 2
business days. In any case, you'll hear from us soon.

*Community Name*

GNU Octave

*Project website*

https://www.octave.org

*Admin e-mail*

[hidden email]

*Existing Community Channels*

Team Chat, Mailing List, Other

*Number of Contributors?*

100

*Source Code Link*

https://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/graph/

*Why do you need Discourse?*

GNU Octave currently uses plain old mailing-lists "[hidden email]" and
"[hidden email]", plus an IRC channel #octave on freenode. The
bug tracker is hosted at GNU Savannah. In the recent time, we found it
difficult to reach new users having questions using this communication
infrastructure. We would be happy to use Discourse to improve our
communication among the developers and with our users. Thank you for
your great offer to support open source software.

*Desired URL*

octave.discourse.group

Team Discourse

https://discourse.org

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Re: Nabble issues --> Discourse

PhilipNienhuis
In reply to this post by siko1056
Kai Torben Ohlhus wrote:

> On 6/25/20 7:03 AM, Philip Nienhuis wrote:
>> Nicholas Jankowski wrote:
>>>      In addition, Nabble's future seems to be uncertain, see:
>>>      http://support.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Nabble-td7605923.html
>>>
>>>
>>> well, not overly surprising.  while gnu.org <http://gnu.org> does
>>> maintain a list archive [1] and there is a reply-to button that I
>>> assume uses a mailto: link, it doesn't quote or carry over any useful
>>> message headers (actually, I don't think the list uses any thread
>>> linking headers). So that's sub-optimal, but possibly provides a
>>> minimal solution for you.
>>>
>>> there was a 'make a forum' discussion last year [2], but it sort of
>>> fizzled. when yahoo groups closed shop a number moved over to
>>> groups.io <http://groups.io>.  that acts as a fairly good mailing list
>>> / forum bridge.  I've been told that google groups can supposedly
>>> serve as a mailing list archive / portal interface. But haven't tried
>>> that since a number of mailing lists left it when they changed their
>>> operating mode from the old usenet nntp model.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Nick.
>>
>> Yeah I know the gnu.org ML archive, in fact that's what I use to browse
>> the MLs (also the bug and patch tracker archives).
>> The reply button's functionality is rudimentary at best :-) OTOH the
>> search functionality is usable.
>>
>> Google groups seem to have a taint with it that many OSS communities I
>> was/are involved with don't like; same for yahoo. Another issue there
>> was retention time for postings, esp. in the usenet times.
>>
>> I do remember last year's discussion and a few others in years gone by.
>> These initiatives usually stall as soon as it emerges that it also
>> requires commitment for responsibilities like moderating, being
>> accountable for the provider, etc. that no one here is willing to pick
>> up. I'll blame no one, I have no interest in (nor time for) that stuff
>> either. What brings us together is enthusiasm for code development, not
>> for mundane stuff like forum administration.
>>
>> Well, I think I'll have to make do with the gnu.org "reply" button for
>> the foreseeable future :-)
>> Hopefully someone will come up with a better alternative, who knows.
>>
>> Philip
>>
>
>
> Since the last discussion [1,2,3], I think Discourse is the way to go
> for Octave to facilitate conversations on the help and maintainer lists,
> especially for new users.
>
> Discourse covers all previously demanded features [4], including e-mail
> interaction.  On the con side, it is "difficult" to host it on Octave's
> own infrastructure (which seems incapable of doing this).
>
> On the pro side, the company developing and hosting Discourse offers
> free hosting for FLOSS projects [5,6].  Checking their requirements,
> Octave seems suitable to apply for their program.  We can exit their
> program at any time (message export, no vendor lock-in).
>
> If there are no strong objections against it, I would like to create and
> manage
>
>    https://octave.discourse.group
>
> and advertise it on Octave homepage, etc. after a short test period of
> about a week or so.
>
> Kai
>
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/,
> [2]
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/2019-12/msg00144.html
> [3] https://wiki.octave.org/Forum_for_GNU_Octave
> [4] https://www.discourse.org/features
> [5] https://blog.discourse.org/2018/11/free-hosting-for-open-source-v2
> [6] https://free.discourse.group/

Thanks very much Kai.

Will there be a distinction between help and maintainers forums, sooner
or later? I find that separation very useful.

BTW, before posting on the maintainers list I had email contact about
Nabble with JWE; he asked me to bring this discussion to the maintainers
ML and he "would be interested in discussing setting up a better
community support forum, managed by the Octave community, and that could
possibly begin to replace the help list."

Looks like it's getting momentum :-)

Philip

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Re: Nabble issues --> Discourse

siko1056
On 6/26/20 5:21 AM, Philip Nienhuis wrote:

> Kai Torben Ohlhus wrote:
>> On 6/25/20 7:03 AM, Philip Nienhuis wrote:
>>> Nicholas Jankowski wrote:
>>>>      In addition, Nabble's future seems to be uncertain, see:
>>>>      http://support.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Nabble-td7605923.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> well, not overly surprising.  while gnu.org <http://gnu.org> does
>>>> maintain a list archive [1] and there is a reply-to button that I
>>>> assume uses a mailto: link, it doesn't quote or carry over any useful
>>>> message headers (actually, I don't think the list uses any thread
>>>> linking headers). So that's sub-optimal, but possibly provides a
>>>> minimal solution for you.
>>>>
>>>> there was a 'make a forum' discussion last year [2], but it sort of
>>>> fizzled. when yahoo groups closed shop a number moved over to
>>>> groups.io <http://groups.io>.  that acts as a fairly good mailing list
>>>> / forum bridge.  I've been told that google groups can supposedly
>>>> serve as a mailing list archive / portal interface. But haven't tried
>>>> that since a number of mailing lists left it when they changed their
>>>> operating mode from the old usenet nntp model.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Nick.
>>>
>>> Yeah I know the gnu.org ML archive, in fact that's what I use to browse
>>> the MLs (also the bug and patch tracker archives).
>>> The reply button's functionality is rudimentary at best :-) OTOH the
>>> search functionality is usable.
>>>
>>> Google groups seem to have a taint with it that many OSS communities I
>>> was/are involved with don't like; same for yahoo. Another issue there
>>> was retention time for postings, esp. in the usenet times.
>>>
>>> I do remember last year's discussion and a few others in years gone by.
>>> These initiatives usually stall as soon as it emerges that it also
>>> requires commitment for responsibilities like moderating, being
>>> accountable for the provider, etc. that no one here is willing to pick
>>> up. I'll blame no one, I have no interest in (nor time for) that stuff
>>> either. What brings us together is enthusiasm for code development, not
>>> for mundane stuff like forum administration.
>>>
>>> Well, I think I'll have to make do with the gnu.org "reply" button for
>>> the foreseeable future :-)
>>> Hopefully someone will come up with a better alternative, who knows.
>>>
>>> Philip
>>>
>>
>>
>> Since the last discussion [1,2,3], I think Discourse is the way to go
>> for Octave to facilitate conversations on the help and maintainer lists,
>> especially for new users.
>>
>> Discourse covers all previously demanded features [4], including e-mail
>> interaction.  On the con side, it is "difficult" to host it on Octave's
>> own infrastructure (which seems incapable of doing this).
>>
>> On the pro side, the company developing and hosting Discourse offers
>> free hosting for FLOSS projects [5,6].  Checking their requirements,
>> Octave seems suitable to apply for their program.  We can exit their
>> program at any time (message export, no vendor lock-in).
>>
>> If there are no strong objections against it, I would like to create and
>> manage
>>
>>    https://octave.discourse.group
>>
>> and advertise it on Octave homepage, etc. after a short test period of
>> about a week or so.
>>
>> Kai
>>
>> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/,
>> [2]
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/octave-maintainers/2019-12/msg00144.html
>>
>> [3] https://wiki.octave.org/Forum_for_GNU_Octave
>> [4] https://www.discourse.org/features
>> [5] https://blog.discourse.org/2018/11/free-hosting-for-open-source-v2
>> [6] https://free.discourse.group/
>
> Thanks very much Kai.
>
> Will there be a distinction between help and maintainers forums, sooner
> or later? I find that separation very useful.
>
> BTW, before posting on the maintainers list I had email contact about
> Nabble with JWE; he asked me to bring this discussion to the maintainers
> ML and he "would be interested in discussing setting up a better
> community support forum, managed by the Octave community, and that could
> possibly begin to replace the help list."
>
> Looks like it's getting momentum :-)
>
> Philip


Basically, I am figuring out what is possible with Discourse, as I never
worked as an Discourse admin before.  I like the distinction between
user and maintainer forums too, but it must not necessarily be two
separate Discourse instances.

A scenario I can imagine is to work with categories (help and
maintainers, maybe more) Maybe it is possible that new users still keep
an overview without getting "disturbed" by development chats.

Kai

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Re: Nabble issues --> Discourse

apjanke-floss


On 6/26/20 11:26 AM, Kai Torben Ohlhus wrote:

> On 6/26/20 5:21 AM, Philip Nienhuis wrote:
>
> [...snip...]
>
>> Thanks very much Kai.
>>
>> Will there be a distinction between help and maintainers forums, sooner
>> or later? I find that separation very useful.
>>
>> BTW, before posting on the maintainers list I had email contact about
>> Nabble with JWE; he asked me to bring this discussion to the maintainers
>> ML and he "would be interested in discussing setting up a better
>> community support forum, managed by the Octave community, and that could
>> possibly begin to replace the help list."
>>
>> Looks like it's getting momentum :-)
>>
>> Philip
>
>
> Basically, I am figuring out what is possible with Discourse, as I never
> worked as an Discourse admin before.  I like the distinction between
> user and maintainer forums too, but it must not necessarily be two
> separate Discourse instances.
>
> A scenario I can imagine is to work with categories (help and
> maintainers, maybe more) Maybe it is possible that new users still keep
> an overview without getting "disturbed" by development chats.
>
> Kai

This sounds like a promising development. I saw Discourse get good use
as a user help forum over at Mac Homebrew. I will hang out on the new
Octave Discourse and see if I can be useful there.

Thanks for setting this up!

Cheers,
Andrew