Octave on Android

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Re: Octave on Android

Thomas Treichl
Am 01.11.13 00:25, schrieb Corbin Champion:

> I agree with the fact that the DMCA complaint was filed before the
> facts were known, but I really don't know why that was the choice
> made.  I mainly posted, because I want people to understand (anyone
> who reads this now or in the future) that there is a better way to go
> about this.  Just talk to the developer.  Just ask for what you want.
>
> About amends, I have filed a rebuttal to the app being delisted.  I am
> not sure what the timeline is for processing it, or whether they will
> or will not contact Thomas again in that process, or whether they will
> or will not find things in my favor.  Never been in this rodeo.  I
> have provided a link to this thread and my source code and other
> information.
>
> Appreciate the support.  I am not feeling burned by this specifically,
> but by a generic behavior.  I forgive Thomas and I hope he forgives me.
>
> Anyway, that is enough drama for this list.
>
> Corbin
Dear Corbin,

   forgiveness to both of us, agreed.

   From my point of view there are some tips I'd like to share with you
at the end here, you maybe should check that once again before exactly
the same package is listed once again at Play Store. Take the following
situation as a basis, where on my and other peoples' tablet OdePkg is
still installed and is not listed on Play Store any more. I've searched
all of my tablet for at least your contact informations, but could not
find any, people cannot get into contact with you any more about OdePkg.

   Next, you deliver dldsolver.oct in form of lib__file0.so as a binary
file within the package. Therefore at least §3 of the underlying GPL V2
should be taken under account where you can still choose between 2 of 3
options (I think you can't choose option 3.3 any more because you
require money to make it working). 3.1 says you can deliver the binary
file together with the source files and 3.2 gives you the option to
deliver a written offer...

   Further, dldsolver.oct is build of various *cc files that I've
written with an underlying GPL V2 but also uses some Fortran files that
I've not written and come with other licenses like e.g. a 3 clause BSD
license with the daskr solver and even some other licence with the
radau* solvers. They clearly want the copyright notice to be shared -
which isn't. All licence files are included in the source package of
OdePkg, please make sure that you can still deliver your package that
way you do without even breaking other's people licences - which again
is meant as a tip for your next release.

Ok, now, enough from my side. Keep on coding!

   Thomas
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Re: Octave on Android

corbinlc
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Thomas Treichl <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 01.11.13 00:25, schrieb Corbin Champion:

I agree with the fact that the DMCA complaint was filed before the facts were known, but I really don't know why that was the choice made.  I mainly posted, because I want people to understand (anyone who reads this now or in the future) that there is a better way to go about this.  Just talk to the developer.  Just ask for what you want.

About amends, I have filed a rebuttal to the app being delisted.  I am not sure what the timeline is for processing it, or whether they will or will not contact Thomas again in that process, or whether they will or will not find things in my favor.  Never been in this rodeo.  I have provided a link to this thread and my source code and other information.

Appreciate the support.  I am not feeling burned by this specifically, but by a generic behavior.  I forgive Thomas and I hope he forgives me.

Anyway, that is enough drama for this list.

Corbin
Dear Corbin,

  forgiveness to both of us, agreed.

  From my point of view there are some tips I'd like to share with you at the end here, you maybe should check that once again before exactly the same package is listed once again at Play Store. Take the following situation as a basis, where on my and other peoples' tablet OdePkg is still installed and is not listed on Play Store any more. I've searched all of my tablet for at least your contact informations, but could not find any, people cannot get into contact with you any more about OdePkg.

  Next, you deliver dldsolver.oct in form of lib__file0.so as a binary file within the package. Therefore at least §3 of the underlying GPL V2 should be taken under account where you can still choose between 2 of 3 options (I think you can't choose option 3.3 any more because you require money to make it working). 3.1 says you can deliver the binary file together with the source files and 3.2 gives you the option to deliver a written offer...

  Further, dldsolver.oct is build of various *cc files that I've written with an underlying GPL V2 but also uses some Fortran files that I've not written and come with other licenses like e.g. a 3 clause BSD license with the daskr solver and even some other licence with the radau* solvers. They clearly want the copyright notice to be shared - which isn't. All licence files are included in the source package of OdePkg, please make sure that you can still deliver your package that way you do without even breaking other's people licences - which again is meant as a tip for your next release.

Ok, now, enough from my side. Keep on coding!

  Thomas

This is a good point.  I already submitted the counter to your complaint and I think, if granted, they will put it back up in the Play Store as is.  I have a big update coming to both the main app and the add-on packages/apps which will fix this, but it will not roll out for a little bit.  Specifically, the packages will include all the normal files provided by the similar Debian packages (instead of a subset), which I believe contain the correct and sufficient copyright information. In addition, I will add a written offer (hadn't thought of that, but it is not a big deal), per your suggestion.  Hopefully, no one minds the problem persisting for a few more weeks.

Thanks,
Corbin

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Re: Octave on Android

Michael Godfrey
On 11/05/2013 01:15 PM, Corbin Champion wrote:

> I have a big update coming to both the main app and the add-on
> packages/apps which will fix this, but it will not roll out for a
> little bit.  Specifically, the packages will include all the normal
> files provided by the similar Debian packages (instead of a subset),
> which I believe contain the correct and sufficient copyright
> information. In addition, I will add a written offer (hadn't thought
> of that, but it is not a big deal), per your suggestion.  Hopefully,
> no one minds the problem persisting for a few more weeks.
>
> Thanks,
> Corbin
>
You might think of syncing your update with the about to be
released Octave 3.8.  "About to" means release candidate 1
is VERY near ready. Then,...

Michael

kdv
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Re: Octave on Android

kdv
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
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Re: Octave on Android

jcordeiro
In reply to this post by Thomas Treichl
Dear Corbin Champion.

I have my doubts if you can legally call what you are doing as any form of distribution, and then charge for it.

But there are 2 clear moral issues on this package.

The first one is that you clearly mislead the user to think this is a free app.
It is marked as "free" in Google app store.
There is "but free (as in freedom) software" on the description.

Then you say "A fee is required for the use of this app, but you pay what you want/what you can."
Well, Mr Corbin... I want to pay 1 cent, not one dollar...
But you wont let me...
So this line is a clear lie.

I understand that you need cash. Every one does.
But do it honestly.

You should list your app with a 1 Dollar price on the app store, and then ask for a donation starting at 0 cents.

This way the user is informed that the minimal payment is 1 dollar.

And if you want to release a 10 try trail. Then do it as every other app developer does, with a different app.
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Re: Octave on Android

John W. Eaton
Administrator
On 05/19/2014 12:26 PM, jcordeiro wrote:

> Dear Corbin Champion.
>
> I have my doubts if you can legally call what you are doing as any form of
> distribution, and then charge for it.
>
> But there are 2 clear moral issues on this package.
>
> The first one is that you clearly mislead the user to think this is a free
> app.
> It is marked as "free" in Google app store.
> There is "but free (as in freedom) software" on the description.
>
> Then you say "A fee is required for the use of this app, but you pay what
> you want/what you can."
> Well, Mr Corbin... I want to pay 1 cent, not one dollar...
> But you wont let me...
> So this line is a clear lie.
>
> I understand that you need cash. Every one does.
> But do it honestly.
>
> You should list your app with a 1 Dollar price on the app store, and then
> ask for a donation starting at 0 cents.
>
> This way the user is informed that the minimal payment is 1 dollar.
>
> And if you want to release a 10 try trail. Then do it as every other app
> developer does, with a different app.

There is nothing wrong with distributing binaries to only those people
who pay for them.  The GPLv3 requires some form of source distribution
if you distribute binaries, but it doesn't require that you distribute
binaries free of charge.  Are the requirements of the GPL regarding
source distribution being met in the case of the android distribution of
Octave?

jwe



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Re: Octave on Android

Mike Miller
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 13:21:55 -0400, John W. Eaton wrote:

> On 05/19/2014 12:26 PM, jcordeiro wrote:
>>
>> Dear Corbin Champion.
>>
>> I have my doubts if you can legally call what you are doing as any form of
>> distribution, and then charge for it.
>>
> [...snip unrelated...]
>
> There is nothing wrong with distributing binaries to only those people who
> pay for them.  The GPLv3 requires some form of source distribution if you
> distribute binaries, but it doesn't require that you distribute binaries
> free of charge.  Are the requirements of the GPL regarding source
> distribution being met in the case of the android distribution of Octave?

I don't think there is any violation, just a troll resurrecting a
six-month old thread. Based on how forthcoming and helpful Corbin has
been in the past, if there are any missing source files that anyone
needs, I am confident he will supply them.

If I remember, the complete source consists of his git repo for
building the Android packages [1] plus the Debian source packages that
are used to build Debian armel binaries for Octave packages (for
example [2], [3]). I do not know if there is a requirement that he
explicitly provide links to exact sources that were used to build a
given package, or if he has to host the complete source himself rather
than point to an external host, but anything minor like that can be
resolved.

  [1] https://github.com/corbinlc/octave4android/tree/b3bb7f6
  [2] http://sources.debian.net/src/octave
  [3] http://sources.debian.net/src/octave-control

--
mike

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Re: Octave on Android

jcordeiro
Well i would call a troll some one that would pick 1 single unrelevant part of a comment and forget the relevant points.
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Re: Octave on Android

John Swensen-3


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 5:06 PM, jcordeiro <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well i would call a troll some one that would pick 1 single unrelevant part
of a comment and forget the relevant points.



--
View this message in context: http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Octave-on-Android-tp4658392p4664207.html
Sent from the Octave - Maintainers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


While calling you a troll may have been wrong (troll usually implies intent to incite), he is correct that you did not read the entirety of this thread. Having read the entire thread, you would not have needed to post. 

In the beginning of this thread, there were several on the maintainers' list with similar concerns to yours. Corbin was contacted and he gladly provided all the necessary materials and even instructions on how to build for Android. Any person with enough skill could take the Octave sources, Corbin's GitHub repository, and the Android SDK to reproduce his work without the need to pay for anything. As such, I think most on the maintainers' list were in agreement that given the extra information provided during the course of the original thread that he was no longer in violation of the GPL and the service he provides is something akin to RedHat where he charges for a distribution and provides updates.

John
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Re: Octave on Android

jcordeiro
What about the part where the developer misleads the users to think the app is free?

What about the part he says we can "donate" what ever we want and then asks for 1 USD?

Does any one else see that wrong?  Or is it just me?
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Re: Octave on Android

Richard Crozier
On 20/05/2014 12:58, jcordeiro wrote:
> What about the part where the developer misleads the users to think the app
> is free?
>
> What about the part he says we can "donate" what ever we want and then asks
> for 1 USD?
>
> Does any one else see that wrong?  Or is it just me?
>

That might be considered unethical by some, but not a GPL violation. As
pointed out, it *is* his obligation to provide all the sources, and the
full build system, but there is *no* obligation for him to provide it at
no cost.

GPL means free as in freedom, not free as in free beer.

Personally I think he should just charge the $1 up front, but it's his
business I guess.

You can always go build it yourself from the freely available sources,
or convince someone to do it for you. Since you don't consider this work
worth $1, it must be easy, right?

Richard


--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


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Re: Octave on Android

jcordeiro
I'm not talking about GPL violations...

If its unethical change it....

Do you really need a license to tell you how to be a decent person.

stop misleading ppl...

Put that app with a 1 dollar price on market, not free...
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Re: Octave on Android

Andreas Weber-3
Am 20.05.2014 16:52, schrieb jcordeiro:

> stop misleading ppl...
> Put that app with a 1 dollar price on market, not free...

This decision isn't up to the GNU octave developers and they have no
influence on further development of the google play app "Octave". You
have to persuade Corbin Champion and I doubt he even reads the
maintainers list.

-- Andy

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Re: Octave on Android

Richard Crozier
In reply to this post by jcordeiro
On 20/05/2014 15:52, jcordeiro wrote:

> I'm not talking about GPL violations...
>
> If its unethical change it....
>
> Do you really need a license to tell you how to be a decent person.
>
> stop misleading ppl...
>
> Put that app with a 1 dollar price on market, not free...
>

Eh? No-one here put it up on the Android market, as you could tell if
you read the old thread.

Corbin's not a core Octave dev, so I don't know why you're asking here.
Since it's not a GPL violation there's nothing anyone here could do.

Richard


--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


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Re: Octave on Android

jcordeiro
There is at least 1 reply from a corbinlc:

corbinlc Oct 22, 2013; 6:19am Re: Octave on Android

My initial reply was to him not for the developers.

I am assuming that he is on this mailing list.
So, i don't really know why you replied at all to my comment.
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Re: Octave on Android

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso-2
On Tue, 2014-05-20 at 08:51 -0700, jcordeiro wrote:
> There is at least 1 reply from a corbinlc:
>
> corbinlc Oct 22, 2013; 6:19am Re: Octave on Android
>
> My initial reply was to him not for the developers.
>
> I am assuming that he is on this mailing list.
 
You are making many assumptions, many of them are incorrect.

- Jordi G. H.



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Re: Octave on Android

jcordeiro
Your reply may gain some value if you specify witch ones are incorrect
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Re: Octave on Android

bpabbott
Administrator
In reply to this post by jcordeiro
On May 20, 2014, at 11:51 AM, jcordeiro <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is at least 1 reply from a corbinlc:
>
> corbinlc Oct 22, 2013; 6:19am Re: Octave on Android
>
> My initial reply was to him not for the developers.
>
> I am assuming that he is on this mailing list.
> So, i don't really know why you replied at all to my comment.

I don't think he is subscribed the mail list.  However, he was cc'd in earlier discussions.

While I am also troubled by the (deceptive?) marketing of Octave on Andriod, the proper place for such a discussion is not here. This mail-list is intended for development of Octave.

Ben


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Re: Octave on Android

corbinlc
Oh gosh, this is still going on!?!  I am still subscribed, but honestly don't read the list.  Please CC me when needed.  Let me do some reading and catch up.  I will get back to you all very soon.

Thanks,
Corbin
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Re: Octave on Android

tmacchant




----- Original Message -----

> From: corbinlc
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Date: 2014/6/15, Sun 14:45
> Subject: Re: Octave on Android
>
> Oh gosh, this is still going on!?!  I am still subscribed, but honestly
> don't
> read the list.  Please CC me when needed.  Let me do some reading and catch
> up.  I will get back to you all very soon.
>
> Thanks,
> Corbin
>


Hello Corbin

Another thread is uploaded:
http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Building-Octave4Android-td4664262.html


Especially:
http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Building-Octave4Android-td4664262.html#a4664289


As Andy described,

In changeset 6687c0b2826c1ee35496c1679ae756e34fe0d953, there were 27,904 
deletions which makes the repo in 23.Mai 2014 almost empty. 
Perhaps we should ask Corbin what happened. 

The above is we would like ask to you.

Tatsuro

1234