Promotion of octave at a conference

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Promotion of octave at a conference

Quyen.Tran

Dear all,

 

I am part of an electronic engineers society in Switzerland called igexact (igexact.org).

 

I would like to promote Octave at one of our conferences on April 2nd in Switzerland. Would you be able to provide some contact details of people who would be interested in joining the event as representatives of Octave? Perhaps power users or very experienced users willing to present their use cases?

 

Thank you very much and best regards,

Quyen Tran

Component Engineer

 

Mettler-Toledo International Inc.

Global Supply Chain Management
Heuwinkelstrasse 3

P.O. Box

CH – 8606 Nänikon, Switzerland

Direct Phone:   +41 44 944 20 82

Mobile:            +41 79 763 28 81

Email:              [hidden email]

Internet:           www.mt.com

 



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Re: Promotion of octave at a conference

Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
> I would like to promote Octave at one of our conferences on April 2nd in Switzerland. Would you be able to provide some contact details of people who would be interested in joining the event as representatives of Octave? Perhaps power users or very experienced users willing to present their use cases?

Hi Quyen,

I would be happy to participate as I also live in Switzerland. What do
you have in mind?

Regards,


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Re: Promotion of octave at a conference

Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
Sorry, hit send to fast,

I gave this talk at HSR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5sOdHPh3oE&feature=youtu.be

And there is this a recent podcast (audio isn't great)
https://flossforscience.com/podcast/season-2-episode-9

Would you like something in this direction?


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RE: Promotion of octave at a conference

Quyen.Tran
Dear Juan Pablo,

Thank you very much for your reply and the very interesting links.

I am at the moment in discussion with Mr. Stahel to clarify how we should continue for this event. Since there is only one presenter for octave requested for this event, I would need to clarify first with Mr. Stahel before I can give you feedback on it.

In the meantime I would like to let you know about the overall topic of the event. Most of the members of the engineering group of igexact are dealing with R&D and procurement of electronic parts at the same time. Therefore they should know both of the two worlds. What most of the members are often doing are statistics and mostly of course with Excel. This however obviously poses some limitations, where I think Octave can help very much. However, they would also be very interested in an overview of Octave as a package, i.e. how it is developed and how the organization behind it works.

Thank you very much for your understanding and I will get back to you as soon as possible, I hope by tomorrow.

Best regards,
Quyen Tran
Component Engineer
Mobile:            +41 79 763 28 81
Igexact.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Pablo Carbajal <[hidden email]>
Sent: Freitag, 22. November 2019 14:41
To: Tran Quyen MTII-GF <[hidden email]>
Cc: Help GNU Octave <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Promotion of octave at a conference

Sorry, hit send to fast,

I gave this talk at HSR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5sOdHPh3oE&feature=youtu.be

And there is this a recent podcast (audio isn't great)
https://flossforscience.com/podcast/season-2-episode-9

Would you like something in this direction?

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Re: Promotion of octave at a conference

siko1056
In reply to this post by Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
On 11/22/19 10:40 PM, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote:

> Sorry, hit send to fast,
>
> I gave this talk at HSR
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5sOdHPh3oE&feature=youtu.be
>
> And there is this a recent podcast (audio isn't great)
> https://flossforscience.com/podcast/season-2-episode-9
>
> Would you like something in this direction?
>

Juan, thank you for sharing your presentations.  I watched/listened and
enjoyed ;-)  Coincidence, that last Friday I also gave a little talk
about Octave and basics of Octave development [1].  There was interest
by some researchers in that topic.

Are you okay if I add your material [2] to a freshly created wiki page
[3]?   If anyone else can contribute "Public talks about the GNU Octave
project, internals and advanced usage", as well, please feel free to
extend the list.

During the preparation for the talk, I noticed, that we rarely have
publicly available material for preparing such things.  Thus I spent
some time creating "nice" slides, figures and screenshots [1].

In my thinking, [3] is not meant for pure applications of Octave in
packages, papers and alike.  For these [4] might be better suited.
Maybe the manuals and teaching books should also go from [4] to [3].

Best,
Kai

[1] https://github.com/octave-de/octave_slides
[2] https://gitlab.com/kakila/octave-teaching
[3] https://wiki.octave.org/Education
[4] https://wiki.octave.org/Publications_using_Octave


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RE: Promotion of octave at a conference

Quyen.Tran
In reply to this post by Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
Dear Juan Pablo,

I just called Mr. Stahel and he mentioned, that you were already in contact.

Therefore I would like to ask, if you are still interested in presenting at our event? Shall I give you a call to quickly explain the goal of our meeting?

Thanks a lot and best regards,

Quyen Tran
Mobile:            +41 79 763 28 81

-----Original Message-----
From: Tran Quyen MTII-GF
Sent: Montag, 25. November 2019 07:37
To: 'Juan Pablo Carbajal' <[hidden email]>
Cc: Help GNU Octave <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Promotion of octave at a conference

Dear Juan Pablo,

Thank you very much for your reply and the very interesting links.

I am at the moment in discussion with Mr. Stahel to clarify how we should continue for this event. Since there is only one presenter for octave requested for this event, I would need to clarify first with Mr. Stahel before I can give you feedback on it.

In the meantime I would like to let you know about the overall topic of the event. Most of the members of the engineering group of igexact are dealing with R&D and procurement of electronic parts at the same time. Therefore they should know both of the two worlds. What most of the members are often doing are statistics and mostly of course with Excel. This however obviously poses some limitations, where I think Octave can help very much. However, they would also be very interested in an overview of Octave as a package, i.e. how it is developed and how the organization behind it works.

Thank you very much for your understanding and I will get back to you as soon as possible, I hope by tomorrow.

Best regards,
Quyen Tran
Component Engineer
Mobile:            +41 79 763 28 81
Igexact.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Pablo Carbajal <[hidden email]>
Sent: Freitag, 22. November 2019 14:41
To: Tran Quyen MTII-GF <[hidden email]>
Cc: Help GNU Octave <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Promotion of octave at a conference

Sorry, hit send to fast,

I gave this talk at HSR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5sOdHPh3oE&feature=youtu.be

And there is this a recent podcast (audio isn't great)
https://flossforscience.com/podcast/season-2-episode-9

Would you like something in this direction?

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[was Promotion of octave ...] Octave material for presentations

Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
In reply to this post by siko1056
> Juan, thank you for sharing your presentations.  I watched/listened and
> enjoyed ;-)  Coincidence, that last Friday I also gave a little talk
> about Octave and basics of Octave development [1].  There was interest
> by some researchers in that topic.
>
> Are you okay if I add your material [2] to a freshly created wiki page
> [3]?   If anyone else can contribute "Public talks about the GNU Octave
> project, internals and advanced usage", as well, please feel free to
> extend the list.
>
> During the preparation for the talk, I noticed, that we rarely have
> publicly available material for preparing such things.  Thus I spent
> some time creating "nice" slides, figures and screenshots [1].
>
> In my thinking, [3] is not meant for pure applications of Octave in
> packages, papers and alike.  For these [4] might be better suited.
> Maybe the manuals and teaching books should also go from [4] to [3].
>
> Best,
> Kai
>
> [1] https://github.com/octave-de/octave_slides
> [2] https://gitlab.com/kakila/octave-teaching
> [3] https://wiki.octave.org/Education
> [4] https://wiki.octave.org/Publications_using_Octave

Hi Kai,

Feel free to add what you consider useful. The slides you link is the
material I use every year at the CERN course, hence it is dynamic.

The slides for the presentation at HSR are here [1], inparticualr look
at [2], all the material should be available on the root folders img/
and includes/

Thanks for doing this.

BTW, I remember you were working on a nb extension for publish, how is
it going? Also, would you be able to weigh how much work would be to
create a sphynx extension for Octave?

[1] https://gitlab.com/kakila/talks
[2] https://gitlab.com/kakila/talks/tree/master/2018_GNUOctave_HSR


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Re: [was Promotion of octave ...] Octave material for presentations

siko1056
On 11/26/19 6:45 AM, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote:

>
> [...]
>
> Feel free to add what you consider useful. The slides you link is the
> material I use every year at the CERN course, hence it is dynamic.
>
> The slides for the presentation at HSR are here [1], inparticualr look
> at [2], all the material should be available on the root folders img/
> and includes/
>
> [...]
>

Thanks, I added your material.

> BTW, I remember you were working on a nb extension for publish, how is
> it going? Also, would you be able to weigh how much work would be to
> create a sphynx extension for Octave?
>
> [1] https://gitlab.com/kakila/talks
> [2] https://gitlab.com/kakila/talks/tree/master/2018_GNUOctave_HSR
>

The efforts of this work got stalled.  Without JSON support bug #53100
[1] this simply is too complicated parsing and writing ipynb-files
(JSON) on my own.  Unfortunately, as time goes by the number of possible
implementations increases and [1] got stuck in some analysis paralysis.

Since I worked on publish between 2016 and 2018, Jupyter(Lab) has really
become a great tool, which you can run offline on you local machine,
with Octave as back-end (as I did in my presentation on Friday).  Thus I
find there is hardly a need to further go down the road to "improve" the
Matlab-invented publish-syntax (I prefer Markdown).

The remaining projects after solving [1] I have in mind is:

(A) Import/open .ipynb files as Octave scripts.  All Markdown sections
are imported as comments and remain untouched.  Output cells are ignored.

(B) Exporting/saving by "publish" back to .ipynb files with output
cells.  Generating graphics as inline base64-encoded objects might be
tough, but not impossible.

What do you mean by "sphinx extension"?  You mean something like

   publish ("myscript.m", "sphinx")

resulting in some "myscript.rst" for further processing inside a sphinx
documentation project?  This would not be too hard, just implementing
[2] for "sphinx" or "rst".  Or being able to parse sphinx documentation
inside m-code, similar to [3]?

Best,
Kai

[1] https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?53100
[2]
https://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/file/ae821ac9ec74/scripts/miscellaneous/private/__publish_latex_output__.m
[3] https://github.com/sphinx-contrib/matlabdomain


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Re: [was Promotion of octave ...] Octave material for presentations

Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 11:48 AM Kai Torben Ohlhus <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 11/26/19 6:45 AM, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Feel free to add what you consider useful. The slides you link is the
> > material I use every year at the CERN course, hence it is dynamic.
> >
> > The slides for the presentation at HSR are here [1], inparticualr look
> > at [2], all the material should be available on the root folders img/
> > and includes/
> >
> > [...]
> >
>
> Thanks, I added your material.
>
> > BTW, I remember you were working on a nb extension for publish, how is
> > it going? Also, would you be able to weigh how much work would be to
> > create a sphynx extension for Octave?
> >
> > [1] https://gitlab.com/kakila/talks
> > [2] https://gitlab.com/kakila/talks/tree/master/2018_GNUOctave_HSR
> >
>
> The efforts of this work got stalled.  Without JSON support bug #53100
> [1] this simply is too complicated parsing and writing ipynb-files
> (JSON) on my own.  Unfortunately, as time goes by the number of possible
> implementations increases and [1] got stuck in some analysis paralysis.
>
> Since I worked on publish between 2016 and 2018, Jupyter(Lab) has really
> become a great tool, which you can run offline on you local machine,
> with Octave as back-end (as I did in my presentation on Friday).  Thus I
> find there is hardly a need to further go down the road to "improve" the
> Matlab-invented publish-syntax (I prefer Markdown).

I think there is no room for discussion here. I also use jupyter(lab)
for reporting and teaching, and markdown (with math extension) is
"unschlagbar" (as of today).

>
> The remaining projects after solving [1] I have in mind is:
>
> (A) Import/open .ipynb files as Octave scripts.  All Markdown sections
> are imported as comments and remain untouched.  Output cells are ignored.
>
Is this on the Octave kernel or you would this as a function in octave?
What about a pandoc filter[1] to do this? This would be python (or
Haskel) coding, I would be interested in getting involved.

> What do you mean by "sphinx extension"?  You mean something like
>
>    publish ("myscript.m", "sphinx")
>
> resulting in some "myscript.rst" for further processing inside a sphinx
> documentation project?  This would not be too hard, just implementing
> [2] for "sphinx" or "rst".  Or being able to parse sphinx documentation
> inside m-code, similar to [3]?
> [3] https://github.com/sphinx-contrib/matlabdomain

[3] is exactly what I meant, I wonder why this did not show up in my
searches. It seems to be licensed under FreeBSD , do you see any
reasons why not to prefer sphynx over texinfo? I am pretty usre there
are opinionated positions out there for and agaisnt texinfo (I
actually never liked it too much).
Have you tested [3]?
What about texinfo <-> sphynx using sphynx? [2]

Regards,
JPi

[1]: https://pandoc.org/filters.html
[2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/ under "Conversion to/from Texinfo"


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Re: [was Promotion of octave ...] Octave material for presentations

siko1056
On 11/26/19 9:51 PM, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 11:48 AM Kai Torben Ohlhus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 11/26/19 6:45 AM, Juan Pablo Carbajal wrote:
>>
>>> BTW, I remember you were working on a nb extension for publish, how is
>>> it going? Also, would you be able to weigh how much work would be to
>>> create a sphynx extension for Octave?
>>
>> The efforts of this work got stalled.  Without JSON support bug #53100
>> this simply is too complicated parsing and writing ipynb-files (JSON)
>> on my own.  Unfortunately, as time goes by the number of possible
>> implementations increases and bug #53100 (JSON) got stuck in some
>> analysis paralysis.
>>
>> Since I worked on publish between 2016 and 2018, Jupyter(Lab) has really
>> become a great tool, which you can run offline on you local machine,
>> with Octave as back-end (as I did in my presentation on Friday).  Thus I
>> find there is hardly a need to further go down the road to "improve" the
>> Matlab-invented publish-syntax (I prefer Markdown).
>
> I think there is no room for discussion here. I also use jupyter(lab)
> for reporting and teaching, and markdown (with math extension) is
> "unschlagbar" (as of today).
>
>>
>> The remaining projects after solving bug #53100 (JSON) I have in mind is:
>>
>> (A) Import/open .ipynb files as Octave scripts.  All Markdown sections
>> are imported as comments and remain untouched.  Output cells are ignored.
>>
> Is this on the Octave kernel or you would this as a function in octave?
> What about a pandoc filter[1] to do this? This would be python (or
> Haskel) coding, I would be interested in getting involved.


I think this should come as Octave function.  Just run
grabcode("myjupyter.ipynb") on the JSON-file and import what is
possible.  That is code sections as usual Octave code in a script file
and Markdown sections as comments.  The grabbed code is stored in some
temporary script file, which can in turn be publish()ed again.  The only
necessary dependency should be jsonencode()/jsondecode(), which do not
have to be performant at all.


> [...]>
> [3] is exactly what I meant, I wonder why this did not show up in my
> searches. It seems to be licensed under FreeBSD , do you see any
> reasons why not to prefer sphynx over texinfo? I am pretty usre there
> are opinionated positions out there for and agaisnt texinfo (I
> actually never liked it too much).
> Have you tested [3]?
> What about texinfo <-> sphynx using sphynx? [2]

Yes, I have tested [3] and considered it for one of my Octave projects I
think three years ago.  After rewriting large parts of the
documentation, the results where not very satisfying and I dropped this
approach.  Sphinx is natively written for Python code.  Thus the
documentation for multiple return arguments does simply look poor
compared to multiple input arguments, even using [3].  Especially, if we
want to document multiple ways of return value combinations.  Here an
example [4].  Additionally, function references were quite "clumsy"
compared to documenting Python code with Sphinx.  Manual post-processing
for "see also" links has to be done...  Same experience goes for Doxygen
which supports Markdown as well.  Both documentation frameworks have
their target programming languages and this is neither Octave nor Matlab
:-/  Another promising tools was [5], but the output looks a bit
"old-school", compared to Sphinx and Doxygen output.

The 1k pages manual with about 800 docstrings might be another reason
not to move away from Texinfo easily.  I can totally understand your
motivation, I don't like Texinfo that much either.  But I think it does
a good enough job for now, as out-of-the-box alternatives are rare and
just introduce new limitations for providing a little more beautiful
markup, I guess.

A more promising approach might be to search for another language with
features that Octave documentation needs (functions, scripts, classes,
multiple return values, cross-referencing ...) and see how they generate
a great looking documentation.  I am also very interesting in such a
language/tool.

Best,
Kai

[1]: https://pandoc.org/filters.html
[2]: https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/ under "Conversion to/from
Texinfo"
[3]: https://github.com/sphinx-contrib/matlabdomain
[4]:
https://github.com/sphinx-contrib/matlabdomain/blob/master/tests/test_data/f_example.m
[5]: https://www.artefact.tk/software/matlab/m2html/


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Re: [was Promotion of octave ...] Octave material for presentations

Juan Pablo Carbajal-2
> I think this should come as Octave function.  Just run
> grabcode("myjupyter.ipynb") on the JSON-file and import what is
> possible.  That is code sections as usual Octave code in a script file
> and Markdown sections as comments.  The grabbed code is stored in some
> temporary script file, which can in turn be publish()ed again.  The only
> necessary dependency should be jsonencode()/jsondecode(), which do not
> have to be performant at all.
>
Sounds, right to me, much better than what I suggested.

> Yes, I have tested [3] and considered it for one of my Octave projects I
> think three years ago.  After rewriting large parts of the
> documentation, the results where not very satisfying and I dropped this
> approach.  Sphinx is natively written for Python code.  Thus the
> documentation for multiple return arguments does simply look poor
> compared to multiple input arguments, even using [3].  Especially, if we
> want to document multiple ways of return value combinations.  Here an
> example [4].  Additionally, function references were quite "clumsy"
> compared to documenting Python code with Sphinx.  Manual post-processing
> for "see also" links has to be done...  Same experience goes for Doxygen
> which supports Markdown as well.  Both documentation frameworks have
> their target programming languages and this is neither Octave nor Matlab
> :-/  Another promising tools was [5], but the output looks a bit
> "old-school", compared to Sphinx and Doxygen output.
>
The example in [4] suffers the disadvantages of the google doc style.
If you use the numpy style instead multiple outputs are well
documented [1].
That said, if the extension doesn't parse numpy-style, then thats
probably something to discuss with the devs.

[1]: https://numpydoc.readthedocs.io/en/latest/format.html#id8 subsection 5

> The 1k pages manual with about 800 docstrings might be another reason
> not to move away from Texinfo easily.  I can totally understand your
> motivation, I don't like Texinfo that much either.  But I think it does
> a good enough job for now, as out-of-the-box alternatives are rare and
> just introduce new limitations for providing a little more beautiful
> markup, I guess.
>
So, I reckon the texinfo --> sphynx conversion is not tested?
My greatest problem with texinfo is the amount of work needed to get
text for manuals with math correctly rendered (unicode to latex
mappings that need manual tuning), example [2], and the result is far
from satisfactory. Followed by the fact that highly formatted
documentation ends up hard to read in plaintext (not rendered),
defeating the advantages of a markup language.

[2]: https://kakila.bitbucket.io/gpemulation/manual.html

> A more promising approach might be to search for another language with
> features that Octave documentation needs (functions, scripts, classes,
> multiple return values, cross-referencing ...) and see how they generate
> a great looking documentation.  I am also very interesting in such a
> language/tool.
>
Julia --> Markdown [3], and jupyter notebooks/lab
R --> roxygen2 and Markdown [4,5]

other languages to check?

[3]: https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/documentation/index.html,
[4]: https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/roxygen2/vignettes/roxygen2.html
[5]: https://rmarkdown.rstudio.com/articles_intro.html