Warning about experimental GUI

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Warning about experimental GUI

Torsten
Do we really have to show the warning about the experimental GUI in such
a prominent way? Can we at least make the widget closable?

Torsten
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

John W. Eaton
Administrator
On 11/27/2013 02:51 AM, Torsten wrote:
> Do we really have to show the warning about the experimental GUI in such
> a prominent way? Can we at least make the widget closable?

I figured someone wouldn't like it.

I think the question is what are we trying to tell users?  Is it "expect
bugs and if you find them we don't want to hear your complaints" or
"expect bugs, please be nice when you report them" or "we don't really
think the GUI is ready, but here it is anyway" or what?

FWIW, I'm OK with releasing Octave with the GUI enabled now and just
being prepared for complaints and nasty comments and trying to fix the
worst problems for the next point release.  But nearly everyone else
seems to think that we should disable the GUI for 3.8.  If we disable it
but include it, then I think we should explain to people why we've done
that.  Putting that explanation in the release notes guarantees that few
people will see it.  Putting it in a pop-up dialog when Octave starts
would probably not be much better if the note is only displayed once.
Displaying it every time would be more annoying to me than the banner
that I added.

jwe

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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Richard Crozier

How about just 'Experimental Octave GUI' in the title bar or similar?
The massive message takes up too much screen space.

Richard

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Daniel Sebald
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton
On 11/27/2013 03:33 PM, John W. Eaton wrote:

> On 11/27/2013 02:51 AM, Torsten wrote:
>> Do we really have to show the warning about the experimental GUI in such
>> a prominent way? Can we at least make the widget closable?
>
> I figured someone wouldn't like it.
>
> I think the question is what are we trying to tell users? Is it "expect
> bugs and if you find them we don't want to hear your complaints" or
> "expect bugs, please be nice when you report them" or "we don't really
> think the GUI is ready, but here it is anyway" or what?

That is the question I was wondering when I proposed using "beta" in the
language and explaining not wanting bug reports about GUI behavior
because the bug likely has already be found.


> FWIW, I'm OK with releasing Octave with the GUI enabled now and just
> being prepared for complaints and nasty comments and trying to fix the
> worst problems for the next point release.

I'm wondering about the stability and options.  If we can get most
platforms in good shape with no more changes to the stable branch then
an all-gui release would be fine even if there are quirks.  It's just
that some of the latest comments about all the compile problems and
Apple systems having little success is troublesome.  I'm wondering
though if the pending release just caused folks to quickly get all
platforms working.

Is automatically launching a GUI in Windows a requirement regardless of
how buggy the GUI is?  Are there Windows users running from the DOS shell?


>  But nearly everyone else
> seems to think that we should disable the GUI for 3.8. If we disable it
> but include it, then I think we should explain to people why we've done
> that. Putting that explanation in the release notes guarantees that few
> people will see it. Putting it in a pop-up dialog when Octave starts
> would probably not be much better if the note is only displayed once.
> Displaying it every time would be more annoying to me than the banner
> that I added.

There is another alternative.  Rather than just displaying the
beta-release message once and never again, a time stamp can be put into
the settings on exit for the last time the user ran Octave GUI.  If a
couple of weeks has gone by before the user starts Octave GUI again,
then pop up the beta-release message.  My thinking is that if the user
is running Octave GUI on a daily basis then he or she is fairly content
with the experimental release and doesn't need to be reminded about the
caveats.

Anyway, any warning message should contain at least these elements:

1) Note about it being experimental and an official 4.0 release coming.
2) A short roadmap of the time frame for a very stable release.
3) A short description of how to launch Octave without the GUI and go
back to the legacy version.

Now, as for bug reports, maybe the best thing to do is to temporarily
modify the way "Report Bug" in the help menu behaves for this release.
Rather than go directly to the page describing how to report bugs, put
up a dialog box reiterating that this is a beta release and that GUI
bugs are a priority so their bug may have already been reported.  At the
end of the message in the dialog box, there is where the link to the
webpage should go.  After this release, we can extract that intermediate
dialog box, go back to current behavior, and move on.

Dan
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

John W. Eaton
Administrator
In reply to this post by Richard Crozier
On 11/27/2013 06:09 PM, Richard Crozier wrote:
>
> How about just 'Experimental Octave GUI' in the title bar or similar?
> The massive message takes up too much screen space.

I'm not sure I'd call it "massive".  Is your theme putting a lot of
extra space around the text?

In any case, I checked in the following change to allow the warning
bar to be removed.  When it is removed, it is replaced by a button in
the tool bar that opens a message dialog to provide more info.

   http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/2ef2043a0601

Before the release we need to put more info about the GUI in the "more
info" dialog.  I'll try to spend some time today or tomorrow working
on this message.

To make it easier for translators, perhaps we should finalize the text
and include all variants in the source now.  That includes the short
warning bar message and the longer "more info" message for the release
candidate and the release.

In the future, I can see us continuing to use this feature for release
development versions so that people are reminded that they are not
using a regular release of Octave.

jwe
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Richard Crozier
On 28/11/2013 13:43, John W. Eaton wrote:
> On 11/27/2013 06:09 PM, Richard Crozier wrote:
>>
>> How about just 'Experimental Octave GUI' in the title bar or similar?
>> The massive message takes up too much screen space.
>
> I'm not sure I'd call it "massive".  Is your theme putting a lot of
> extra space around the text?
>
<snip>
>
> jwe
>

Well, maybe some slight hyperbole, but on a small laptop screen it's a
'noticeable' reduction I think. Your solution sounds good to me.

Richard

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

John W. Eaton
Administrator
On 11/28/2013 08:46 AM, Richard Crozier wrote:

> Well, maybe some slight hyperbole, but on a small laptop screen it's a
> 'noticeable' reduction I think. Your solution sounds good to me.

I forgot to mention that it would be OK with me if we also made hiding
the warning bar sticky so that the setting is remembered.  I just
haven't done that yet, but I will try to do it unless someone else does
it first.

jwe


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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Torsten
On 28.11.2013 14:58, John W. Eaton wrote:

> On 11/28/2013 08:46 AM, Richard Crozier wrote:
>
>> Well, maybe some slight hyperbole, but on a small laptop screen it's a
>> 'noticeable' reduction I think. Your solution sounds good to me.
>
> I forgot to mention that it would be OK with me if we also made hiding
> the warning bar sticky so that the setting is remembered.  I just
> haven't done that yet, but I will try to do it unless someone else does
> it first.
>
> jwe
>
>
Instead of hiding forever, I would like to revisit Dan's suggestion,
that the warning reappears after a while. But instead of taking a time
interval the attached patch automatically hides the warning for a
certain number of restarts (here 20) before showing it again. Of course
we can chose another limit for the counter.

Torsten

auto_hide_warning.diff (838 bytes) Download Attachment
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Thorsten Liebig
Am 28.11.2013 21:36, schrieb Torsten:

> On 28.11.2013 14:58, John W. Eaton wrote:
>> On 11/28/2013 08:46 AM, Richard Crozier wrote:
>>
>>> Well, maybe some slight hyperbole, but on a small laptop screen it's a
>>> 'noticeable' reduction I think. Your solution sounds good to me.
>> I forgot to mention that it would be OK with me if we also made hiding
>> the warning bar sticky so that the setting is remembered.  I just
>> haven't done that yet, but I will try to do it unless someone else does
>> it first.
>>
>> jwe
>>
>>
> Instead of hiding forever, I would like to revisit Dan's suggestion,
> that the warning reappears after a while. But instead of taking a time
> interval the attached patch automatically hides the warning for a
> certain number of restarts (here 20) before showing it again. Of course
> we can chose another limit for the counter.
>
> Torsten
I don't like this idea.
Why should we annoy the GUI users with some message reappear at random??

Thorsten
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

c.-2

On 28 Nov 2013, at 22:02, Thorsten Liebig <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't like this idea.
> Why should we annoy the GUI users with some message reappear at random??

I actually like the current warning, if it can be hidden I don't think it is annoying at all.

> Thorsten
c.
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Daniel Sebald
In reply to this post by Thorsten Liebig
On 11/28/2013 03:02 PM, Thorsten Liebig wrote:

> Am 28.11.2013 21:36, schrieb Torsten:
>> On 28.11.2013 14:58, John W. Eaton wrote:
>>> On 11/28/2013 08:46 AM, Richard Crozier wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, maybe some slight hyperbole, but on a small laptop screen it's a
>>>> 'noticeable' reduction I think. Your solution sounds good to me.
>>> I forgot to mention that it would be OK with me if we also made hiding
>>> the warning bar sticky so that the setting is remembered.  I just
>>> haven't done that yet, but I will try to do it unless someone else does
>>> it first.
>>>
>>> jwe
>>>
>>>
>> Instead of hiding forever, I would like to revisit Dan's suggestion,
>> that the warning reappears after a while. But instead of taking a time
>> interval the attached patch automatically hides the warning for a
>> certain number of restarts (here 20) before showing it again. Of course
>> we can chose another limit for the counter.
>>
>> Torsten
> I don't like this idea.
> Why should we annoy the GUI users with some message reappear at random??
>
> Thorsten

Seemingly at random, that is.  Nonetheless, I prefer the time-stamp
approach because what it means is that if the user hasn't used the
experimental GUI for a while he or she gets a reminder it is experimental.

Dan
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Thorsten Liebig
Am 29.11.2013 03:14, schrieb Daniel J Sebald:

> On 11/28/2013 03:02 PM, Thorsten Liebig wrote:
>> Am 28.11.2013 21:36, schrieb Torsten:
>>> On 28.11.2013 14:58, John W. Eaton wrote:
>>>> On 11/28/2013 08:46 AM, Richard Crozier wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, maybe some slight hyperbole, but on a small laptop screen it's a
>>>>> 'noticeable' reduction I think. Your solution sounds good to me.
>>>> I forgot to mention that it would be OK with me if we also made hiding
>>>> the warning bar sticky so that the setting is remembered.  I just
>>>> haven't done that yet, but I will try to do it unless someone else does
>>>> it first.
>>>>
>>>> jwe
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Instead of hiding forever, I would like to revisit Dan's suggestion,
>>> that the warning reappears after a while. But instead of taking a time
>>> interval the attached patch automatically hides the warning for a
>>> certain number of restarts (here 20) before showing it again. Of course
>>> we can chose another limit for the counter.
>>>
>>> Torsten
>> I don't like this idea.
>> Why should we annoy the GUI users with some message reappear at random??
>>
>> Thorsten
>
> Seemingly at random, that is.  Nonetheless, I prefer the time-stamp approach because what it means is that if the user hasn't used the experimental
> GUI for a while he or she gets a reminder it is experimental.
>
> Dan
>
And if I use it regularly?? I personally would really hate it if some popup dialog would annoy me with some warning I'm well aware of...
First time use, ok. Make it hide ok. Let it reappear?? Please no....

Thorsten

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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

Daniel Sebald
On 11/29/2013 01:50 AM, Thorsten Liebig wrote:

> Am 29.11.2013 03:14, schrieb Daniel J Sebald:
>> On 11/28/2013 03:02 PM, Thorsten Liebig wrote:
>>> Am 28.11.2013 21:36, schrieb Torsten:
>>>> On 28.11.2013 14:58, John W. Eaton wrote:
>>>>> On 11/28/2013 08:46 AM, Richard Crozier wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, maybe some slight hyperbole, but on a small laptop screen it's a
>>>>>> 'noticeable' reduction I think. Your solution sounds good to me.
>>>>> I forgot to mention that it would be OK with me if we also made hiding
>>>>> the warning bar sticky so that the setting is remembered.  I just
>>>>> haven't done that yet, but I will try to do it unless someone else does
>>>>> it first.
>>>>>
>>>>> jwe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Instead of hiding forever, I would like to revisit Dan's suggestion,
>>>> that the warning reappears after a while. But instead of taking a time
>>>> interval the attached patch automatically hides the warning for a
>>>> certain number of restarts (here 20) before showing it again. Of course
>>>> we can chose another limit for the counter.
>>>>
>>>> Torsten
>>> I don't like this idea.
>>> Why should we annoy the GUI users with some message reappear at random??
>>>
>>> Thorsten
>>
>> Seemingly at random, that is.  Nonetheless, I prefer the time-stamp approach because what it means is that if the user hasn't used the experimental
>> GUI for a while he or she gets a reminder it is experimental.
>>
>> Dan
>>
> And if I use it regularly?? I personally would really hate it if some popup dialog would annoy me with some warning I'm well aware of...
> First time use, ok. Make it hide ok. Let it reappear?? Please no....
>
> Thorsten

The timestamp is updated upon exit, so using Octave regularly means the
dialog box wouldn't appear.  Only if the user doesn't use Octave for a
couple weeks (month) would the warning appear.  I myself easily forget
the state of a program or utility when working with so many programs and
doing so many things on the computer.

I'm OK with hiding the warning message and keeping it hidden.

Dan
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Re: Warning about experimental GUI

John W. Eaton
Administrator
I checked in the following change:

   http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/8695fa048226

The warning bar will stay hidden, but the gui info button will always
be present if the warning bar is not shown.

jwe
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GUI info dialog (was: Re: Warning about experimental GUI)

John W. Eaton
Administrator
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton
On 11/28/2013 08:43 AM, John W. Eaton wrote:

> Before the release we need to put more info about the GUI in the "more
> info" dialog.  I'll try to spend some time today or tomorrow working
> on this message.

I checked in the following changeset:

   http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/482cc05b4f99

The attached image is what it looks like on my system.

I also updated the NEWS entry for the GUI.

jwe


gui-info.png (148K) Download Attachment
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Re: GUI info dialog (was: Re: Warning about experimental GUI)

rezahousseini



On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 12:16 AM, John W. Eaton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 11/28/2013 08:43 AM, John W. Eaton wrote:

Before the release we need to put more info about the GUI in the "more
info" dialog.  I'll try to spend some time today or tomorrow working
on this message.

I checked in the following changeset:

  http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/482cc05b4f99

The attached image is what it looks like on my system.

I also updated the NEWS entry for the GUI.

jwe


Sounds good to me. Just a minor correction, saw a typo in:

We beleive ....
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Re: GUI info dialog (was: Re: Warning about experimental GUI)

Michael Godfrey
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton

Just to say that your more info text seems very good to me.

On Nov 29, 2013 3:18 PM, "John W. Eaton" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 11/28/2013 08:43 AM, John W. Eaton wrote:

Before the release we need to put more info about the GUI in the "more
info" dialog.  I'll try to spend some time today or tomorrow working
on this message.

I checked in the following changeset:

  http://hg.savannah.gnu.org/hgweb/octave/rev/482cc05b4f99

The attached image is what it looks like on my system.

I also updated the NEWS entry for the GUI.

jwe

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Re: GUI info dialog

Daniel Sebald
In reply to this post by rezahousseini
On 11/30/2013 02:16 AM, Reza Housseini wrote:

>     I also updated the NEWS entry for the GUI.
>
>     jwe
>
>
> Sounds good to me. Just a minor correction, saw a typo in:
>
> We beleive ....

I've run the latest code.  Looks good.  The warning explains the
situation well, and the hidden button doesn't take up any extra vertical
space while still giving the impression this is an experimental release.

Maybe reread the dialog text after not looking at it for a few days.  It
seems like a word could be missing in one or two spots.

Dan
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Re: GUI info dialog (was: Re: Warning about experimental GUI)

fgnievinski
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton
I didn't see that big chunk of text in the string files for translation...
-F.
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Re: GUI info dialog

Torsten
On 02.12.2013 13:43, fgnievinski wrote:
> I didn't see that big chunk of text in the string files for translation...
> -F.

Officially we have string freeze for 3.8 but this message really should
be translated. Should we start another "last translation cycle" before
the final string freeze?

Torsten
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