Woctave-another gui front end

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Woctave-another gui front end

vinukn
Anyone know woctave? http://sourceforge.net/projects/woctave/ . I just found today. It look like guioctave,but opensource. It is a small one,written in wtl.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

andy buckle



On 4 December 2012 14:46, vinukn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyone know woctave? http://sourceforge.net/projects/woctave/ . I just found
today. It look like guioctave,but opensource. It is a small one,written in
wtl.

Design problems inherent in other GUIs.

http://wiki.octave.org/FAQ#What_about_all_the_Octave_GUIs_I_find_on_Google.3F


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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso-2
On 4 December 2012 10:29, Andy Buckle <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 4 December 2012 14:46, vinukn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone know woctave? http://sourceforge.net/projects/woctave/ . I just
>> found
>> today. It look like guioctave,but opensource. It is a small one,written in
>> wtl.
>
>
> free vs open source
>
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html
>
> Design problems inherent in other GUIs.
>
> http://wiki.octave.org/FAQ#What_about_all_the_Octave_GUIs_I_find_on_Google.3F

This looks like yet another pipe-based GUI. I guess they're in bloom
this time of year... At least it's keeping up with our yearly average
of two new external GUIs. I don't forecast long life to this one,
however.

- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by vinukn




----- Original Message -----

> From: vinukn <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:46 PM
> Subject: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> Anyone know woctave? http://sourceforge.net/projects/woctave/ . I just found
> today. It look like guioctave,but opensource. It is a small one,written in
> wtl.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Woctave-another-gui-front-end-tp4647533.html
> Sent from the Octave - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Help-octave mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave
>


Why do you need a GUI in the first place ?

I am asking because:

1) it is _you_ and not the GUI who is entering Octave commands;
2) it is _you_ and not the GUI who edits source files of Octave scripts;
3) it is _your_ reference of text editor that determines the text editor choice for the above;
4) it is the _OS_ and GUI toolkit which determines how the file manager looks and acts.

I.e. the screenshot I saw looks to me like simply glued together several windows which I have in any modern OS anyway and which I can rearrange the way I like.

Furthermore, I often work with _several_ source files - how does a GUI like that present several text files ?

Regards,
  Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

nrjank
On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




----- Original Message -----
> From: vinukn <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:46 PM
> Subject: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> Anyone know woctave? http://sourceforge.net/projects/woctave/ . I just found
> today. It look like guioctave,but opensource. It is a small one,written in
> wtl.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Woctave-another-gui-front-end-tp4647533.html
> Sent from the Octave - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Help-octave mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave
>


Why do you need a GUI in the first place ?

I am asking because:

1) it is _you_ and not the GUI who is entering Octave commands;
2) it is _you_ and not the GUI who edits source files of Octave scripts;
3) it is _your_ reference of text editor that determines the text editor choice for the above;
4) it is the _OS_ and GUI toolkit which determines how the file manager looks and acts.

I.e. the screenshot I saw looks to me like simply glued together several windows which I have in any modern OS anyway and which I can rearrange the way I like.

Furthermore, I often work with _several_ source files - how does a GUI like that present several text files ?

Regards,
  Sergei.

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a great question. How many people 'grew up' using Matlab when they introduced the GUI, er, I mean Desktop?  what did it do? it took the CLI window, and a file manager window, stuck them together. Then, it added a persistent variable window, and a command history window. made them permanent additions. anything else? What I wanted it already had: a decent editor/debugger. I was fine with them all floating around as separate windows, and I usually hid much of the rest anyway.  Haven't really used Matlab since to know if there's something else I'm missing from any 'new' Gui, er, desktop features...  But I think I just harped on this a few threads ago... :)  That said, a GUI is a barrier to adoption. if for no other reason than people will say, "no gui?" and move on.

nickj

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by vinukn

--- On Tue, 12/4/12, Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
To: "Sergei Steshenko" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, December 4, 2012, 4:38 PM

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:


----- Original Message -----

> From: vinukn <[hidden email]>

> To: [hidden email]

> Cc:

> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:46 PM

> Subject: Woctave-another gui front end

>

> Anyone know woctave? http://sourceforge.net/projects/woctave/ . I just found

> today. It look like guioctave,but opensource. It is a small one,written in

> wtl.

>

>

>

> --

> View this message in context:

> http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Woctave-another-gui-front-end-tp4647533.html

> Sent from the Octave - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

> _______________________________________________

> Help-octave mailing list

> [hidden email]

> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave

>





Why do you need a GUI in the first place ?



I am asking because:



1) it is _you_ and not the GUI who is entering Octave commands;

2) it is _you_ and not the GUI who edits source files of Octave scripts;

3) it is _your_ reference of text editor that determines the text editor choice for the above;

4) it is the _OS_ and GUI toolkit which determines how the file manager looks and acts.



I.e. the screenshot I saw looks to me like simply glued together several windows which I have in any modern OS anyway and which I can rearrange the way I like.



Furthermore, I often work with _several_ source files - how does a GUI like that present several text files ?



Regards,

  Sergei.



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a great question. How many people 'grew up' using Matlab when they introduced the GUI, er, I mean Desktop?  what did it do? it took the CLI window, and a file manager window, stuck them together. Then, it added a persistent variable window, and a command history window. made them permanent additions. anything else? What I wanted it already had: a decent editor/debugger. I was fine with them all floating around as separate windows, and I usually hid much of the rest anyway.  Haven't really used Matlab since to know if there's something else I'm missing from any 'new' Gui, er, desktop features...  But I think I just harped on this a few threads ago... :)  That said, a GUI is a barrier to adoption. if for no other reason than people will say, "no gui?" and move on.



nickj

_______________________________________________



AFAIK (though I don't have access to Matlab), Matlab allows to build GUI applications, i.e. one can create a GUI and as callbacks to widgets' state changes to call Matlab functions.

Such a functionality makes sense, but gluing together provided by the OS/desktop environment windows doesn't.


Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso-2
In reply to this post by nrjank
On 4 December 2012 19:38, Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That said, a GUI is a barrier to adoption. if for no other reason
> than people will say, "no gui?" and move on.

The people who want a GUI do not know any other way to interact with a
programming environment. They typically know no other programming
language than Matlab, so they have never tried to learn a text editor
or environment that you can use to program elsewhere. They view typing
commands into a command line as black magic. They furthermore barely
even think of Matlab as a programming language at all.

It is futile to try to convince the people who want a GUI that they
don't need one. They think they're too dumb to learn another way and
they view non-GUI work as impossible black magic only the most expert
programmers can achieve.

- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----

> From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
> To: Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 3:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On 4 December 2012 19:38, Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  That said, a GUI is a barrier to adoption. if for no other reason
>>  than people will say, "no gui?" and move on.
>
> The people who want a GUI do not know any other way to interact with a
> programming environment. They typically know no other programming
> language than Matlab, so they have never tried to learn a text editor
> or environment that you can use to program elsewhere. They view typing
> commands into a command line as black magic. They furthermore barely
> even think of Matlab as a programming language at all.
>
> It is futile to try to convince the people who want a GUI that they
> don't need one. They think they're too dumb to learn another way and
> they view non-GUI work as impossible black magic only the most expert
> programmers can achieve.
>
> - Jordi G. H.
>

It makes no sense to service needs of such people. Scientific calculations require certain skill level; inability to learn a text editor and to work with a terminal emulator casts grave doubts the skill level is good enough.

...

A script can be written which starts, say, Notepad++ and the window titles will be "Enter your source here, Enter Octave commands here", etc.


Regards,
  Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

José Luis García Pallero
2012/12/5 Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>:

>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
>> To: Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 3:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>
>> On 4 December 2012 19:38, Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>  That said, a GUI is a barrier to adoption. if for no other reason
>>>  than people will say, "no gui?" and move on.
>>
>> The people who want a GUI do not know any other way to interact with a
>> programming environment. They typically know no other programming
>> language than Matlab, so they have never tried to learn a text editor
>> or environment that you can use to program elsewhere. They view typing
>> commands into a command line as black magic. They furthermore barely
>> even think of Matlab as a programming language at all.
>>
>> It is futile to try to convince the people who want a GUI that they
>> don't need one. They think they're too dumb to learn another way and
>> they view non-GUI work as impossible black magic only the most expert
>> programmers can achieve.
>>
>> - Jordi G. H.
>>
>
> It makes no sense to service needs of such people. Scientific calculations require certain skill level; inability to learn a text editor and to work with a terminal emulator casts grave doubts the skill level is good enough.

I do not agree with this. At a first level at the University I think
its important to have a gui in order to facilitate the use of Octave.
Think in people who now are not scientists but can be in a few years.
If octave gui facilitates that scientists make plots with octave
instead of matlab or ¡excel!, then octave gui is a very good thing

>
> ...
>
> A script can be written which starts, say, Notepad++ and the window titles will be "Enter your source here, Enter Octave commands here", etc.
>
>
> Regards,
>   Sergei.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Help-octave mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave



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/ / \
V_/_
Use Debian GNU/Linux and enjoy!
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----
> From: José Luis García Pallero <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> 2012/12/5 Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>:
[snip]

>>  It makes no sense to service needs of such people. Scientific calculations
> require certain skill level; inability to learn a text editor and to work with a
> terminal emulator casts grave doubts the skill level is good enough.
>
> I do not agree with this. At a first level at the University I think
> its important to have a gui in order to facilitate the use of Octave.
> Think in people who now are not scientists but can be in a few years.
> If octave gui facilitates that scientists make plots with octave
> instead of matlab or ¡excel!, then octave gui is a very good thing
>
>>
>>  ...
>>
>>  A script can be written which starts, say, Notepad++ and the window titles
> will be "Enter your source here, Enter Octave commands here", etc.
>>
>>
>>  Regards,
>>    Sergei.
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Help-octave mailing list
>>  [hidden email]
>>  https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave
>
>


Sorry, I don't agree with you.

Life in college should _not_ be easy. Students should _learn_ and make _effort_.

I can post links showing abysmal state of US education, for example.

For starters, calculators should be prohibited from math lessons.



Regards,
  Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----

> From: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> To: José Luis García Pallero <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; Nicholas Jankowski <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: José Luis García Pallero <[hidden email]>
>>  To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>  Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; Nicholas Jankowski
> <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]"
> <[hidden email]>
>>  Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 4:23 PM
>>  Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>
>>  2012/12/5 Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>:
> [snip]
>>>   It makes no sense to service needs of such people. Scientific
> calculations
>>  require certain skill level; inability to learn a text editor and to work
> with a
>>  terminal emulator casts grave doubts the skill level is good enough.
>>
>>  I do not agree with this. At a first level at the University I think
>>  its important to have a gui in order to facilitate the use of Octave.
>>  Think in people who now are not scientists but can be in a few years.
>>  If octave gui facilitates that scientists make plots with octave
>>  instead of matlab or ¡excel!, then octave gui is a very good thing
>>
>>>
>>>   ...
>>>
>>>   A script can be written which starts, say, Notepad++ and the window
> titles
>>  will be "Enter your source here, Enter Octave commands here",
> etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>     Sergei.
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Help-octave mailing list
>>>   [hidden email]
>>>   https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave
>>
>>
>
>
> Sorry, I don't agree with you.
>
> Life in college should _not_ be easy. Students should _learn_ and make _effort_.
>
> I can post links showing abysmal state of US education, for example.
>
> For starters, calculators should be prohibited from math lessons.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>   Sergei.



And, of course: http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-technology.html :

"Build a system that even a fool can use and only a fool will want to use it".


Regards,
  Sergei.



>
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Freddy Omar López Quintero
I think this discussion never will converge to an agreement.

Many people are convinced that some kind of tools as shell or emacs are the best way to work and others not. I think there is nothing bad in a GUI which allow to the user do bored tasks more... faster than typing. 

For instance, consider the GUI of R program under windows. This is, I think, a basic GUI which has basic functions in its menus (open scripts, load workspaces, change directories, save files, stop processes). Nothing else. It is basic but it helps to the productivity.

In my opinion, an terrible example of a GUI is the R Commander GUI. This seems has been built for people don't like to do nothing except those things are in the menus.

Cheers!

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko







>________________________________
> From: Freddy López <[hidden email]>
>To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>Cc: José Luis García Pallero <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 6:32 PM
>Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
>
>I think this discussion never will converge to an agreement.
>
>
>Many people are convinced that some kind of tools as shell or emacs are the best way to work and others not. I think there is nothing bad in a GUI which allow to the user do bored tasks more... faster than typing. 
>
>
>For instance, consider the GUI of R program under windows. This is, I think, a basic GUI which has basic functions in its menus (open scripts, load workspaces, change directories, save files, stop processes). Nothing else. It is basic but it helps to the productivity.
>
>
>In my opinion, an terrible example of a GUI is the R Commander GUI. This seems has been built for people don't like to do nothing except those things are in the menus.
>
>
>Cheers!
>
>

I see no logical difference between reading table of contents of a document and GUI menu having the _same_ items.

If people can't read documents, they shouldn't be doing engineering, scientific and development work.


Regards,
  Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Søren Hauberg

On Dec 5, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
> If people can't read documents, they shouldn't be doing engineering, scientific and development work.

And if people can't be polite and respect that different people have different needs they should not speak in public.

Ahh, the joys of making absolute statements about non-absolutes…

Søren
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----

> From: Søren Hauberg <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Freddy López <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
>>  If people can't read documents, they shouldn't be doing
> engineering, scientific and development work.
>
> And if people can't be polite and respect that different people have
> different needs they should not speak in public.
>
> Ahh, the joys of making absolute statements about non-absolutes…
>
> Søren
>

You know, in math there is a notion of limit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_%28mathematics%29 ).

And sometimes it makes sense to visualize a limit.

I believe that, as I said, "If people can't read documents, they shouldn't be doing engineering, scientific and development work", and the visualized limit is the crowd in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Ic_OvIPtU .

...

I am reading a lot of info on what's happening in "science".

On Slashdot there was a story about a "scientist" (IIRC a physiologist) who in detail described the method he was using to process experimental data. He was describing it as if he genuinely came up with it - which I believe was true. I.e. I believe he came up with it.

The problem is that he came up with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezoidal_rule .



In another place I read about an "expert" in electrodynamics who was claiming in order to detect 1.5km electromagnetic wavelength one needs an antenna of comparable length.



I also read about "scientists" (with background in mechanics) who were using finite element software for modeling of gas and liquid flows in order to model movement of matter inside nanotubes with 1 atom thick walls. And when they were told that electron clouds are not exactly kind of matter one finds in home piping, they didn't pay any attention - they were not taught quantum mechanics in particular, and they were not taught the notion of applicability in physics.


So, you better decide what kind of people you personally and Octave community in general want to support. While making the decision I strongly suggest to remember the following:

"first class people surround themselves with first class people; second class people surround themselves with third class people"

, etc.



Also, a useful story for you - I read it in the nineties.


A system administrator upgraded a female accountant's computer with a faster one (the computer was running Windows).

The accountant soon came to the administrator complaining that the new computer truncates files when they are copied.

The administrator was quite surprised to hear that, so he asked the how she came to that conclusion. She answered: "You know, when files are being copied, sheets of paper fly on the screen. So with the old computer when I was copying that file five sheets of paper flew, and now only three".



Beware, you are likely going to help those 5 -> 3 sheets of paper kind of people.


And the truth of my life is that I came from the educational system which did have admittance exams. I myself had first to pass admittance exams at the age of 14. Later in that school in the first semester there was a noticeable number of dropouts - even though originally they passed admittance exams.

The school was supposed to teach us math and physics at certain level, not to make us feel good and easy. And we didn't - this first semester was quite difficult.


But the reward was actually quite high - first year at the university was quite easy. Among other things because we came with pretty in-depth (with theorem proving - not simple indoctrination) of calculus and with pretty good knowledge of physics. For example, photoelectric effect was explained using quantum theory.


Also, even though my first computing experience was using a computer with punched cards ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card ), somehow the educational system was smart enough to teach us _first_ numerical methods of computations, and only then to let us do real programming.


You probably remember how frequently people ask here questions because of complete lack of understanding what floating point math is.


And that's why uneducated/undereducated people who can't read documents shouldn't be doing engineering, scientific and development work.


_Exactly_ because they are utilizing time and energy of more educated people who did bother to read documents enabling them to do engineering, scientific and development work.



Regards,
  Sergei.


P.S. Even though I more often than disagree with Jordi, (re)read what he recently wrote about Octave users coming from Matlab world. Maybe you'll see conceptual similarities.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Freddy Omar López Quintero



----- Original Message -----
> From: Søren Hauberg <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Freddy López <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
>>  If people can't read documents, they shouldn't be doing
> engineering, scientific and development work.
>
> And if people can't be polite and respect that different people have
> different needs they should not speak in public.
>
> Ahh, the joys of making absolute statements about non-absolutes…
>
> Søren
>

You know, in math there is a notion of limit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_%28mathematics%29 ).

And sometimes it makes sense to visualize a limit.

I believe that, as I said, "If people can't read documents, they shouldn't be doing engineering, scientific and development work", and the visualized limit is the crowd in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Ic_OvIPtU .

...

I am reading a lot of info on what's happening in "science".

On Slashdot there was a story about a "scientist" (IIRC a physiologist) who in detail described the method he was using to process experimental data. He was describing it as if he genuinely came up with it - which I believe was true. I.e. I believe he came up with it.

The problem is that he came up with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezoidal_rule .



In another place I read about an "expert" in electrodynamics who was claiming in order to detect 1.5km electromagnetic wavelength one needs an antenna of comparable length.



I also read about "scientists" (with background in mechanics) who were using finite element software for modeling of gas and liquid flows in order to model movement of matter inside nanotubes with 1 atom thick walls. And when they were told that electron clouds are not exactly kind of matter one finds in home piping, they didn't pay any attention - they were not taught quantum mechanics in particular, and they were not taught the notion of applicability in physics.


So, you better decide what kind of people you personally and Octave community in general want to support. While making the decision I strongly suggest to remember the following:

"first class people surround themselves with first class people; second class people surround themselves with third class people"

, etc.



Also, a useful story for you - I read it in the nineties.


A system administrator upgraded a female accountant's computer with a faster one (the computer was running Windows).

The accountant soon came to the administrator complaining that the new computer truncates files when they are copied.

The administrator was quite surprised to hear that, so he asked the how she came to that conclusion. She answered: "You know, when files are being copied, sheets of paper fly on the screen. So with the old computer when I was copying that file five sheets of paper flew, and now only three".



Beware, you are likely going to help those 5 -> 3 sheets of paper kind of people.


And the truth of my life is that I came from the educational system which did have admittance exams. I myself had first to pass admittance exams at the age of 14. Later in that school in the first semester there was a noticeable number of dropouts - even though originally they passed admittance exams.

The school was supposed to teach us math and physics at certain level, not to make us feel good and easy. And we didn't - this first semester was quite difficult.


But the reward was actually quite high - first year at the university was quite easy. Among other things because we came with pretty in-depth (with theorem proving - not simple indoctrination) of calculus and with pretty good knowledge of physics. For example, photoelectric effect was explained using quantum theory.


Also, even though my first computing experience was using a computer with punched cards ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card ), somehow the educational system was smart enough to teach us _first_ numerical methods of computations, and only then to let us do real programming.


You probably remember how frequently people ask here questions because of complete lack of understanding what floating point math is.


And that's why uneducated/undereducated people who can't read documents shouldn't be doing engineering, scientific and development work.


_Exactly_ because they are utilizing time and energy of more educated people who did bother to read documents enabling them to do engineering, scientific and development work.



Regards,
  Sergei.


P.S. Even though I more often than disagree with Jordi, (re)read what he recently wrote about Octave users coming from Matlab world. Maybe you'll see conceptual similarities.



Yes, Sergei, you are a god.

Is this comment enough for you or do you need more to reaffirm your ego? Because all members of this list are available to praise your thoughts.

Salve, oh Sergei.

--
«But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.'»

JRR Tolkien


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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by vinukn

--- On Sat, 12/8/12, Freddy López <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Freddy López <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
To: "Sergei Steshenko" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Søren Hauberg" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, December 8, 2012, 12:02 PM
[snip]
Yes, Sergei, you are a god.
[snip]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Huh ?

The chips I took part designing had specs 200 .. 300 pages long.

PCIExpress spec, IIRC, is 700+ pages long.

Engineers in order just to start going in chip design need to read two or more specs. So, using the numbers above, first about 1000 pages if documentation need to be read.


There are _objective_ requirements for certain occupations. Ability and willingness to read and understand documentation is a prerequisite for chip designers and other engineers.


By the way, reading PCIExpress standard as PDF file I came across some omissions - some terms were use, but not defined in the document. I happened to be the pieces were defined in PCI (not Express) documentation, so it's natural the omissions were made.

Because the same group of people was behind both standards. Since I didn't know PCI standard, I found the omissions.

...

Year 2003 C++ standard is 756 pages long, and year 2011 C++ standard is even longer since new features have been added.

...

Unwillingness to read documentation is refusal to obtain the necessary knowledge already obtained and written by others.

...

As I read somewhere, sticking just with GUI is like perceiving the world as pictures (children up to age of 4..5) and not learning to write.

Surprisingly, navigating through (file) menus is often slower than doing the same in command line, especially taking into account that in command line one can easily do things like

ls *foo*.m (dir *foo*.m)
find . -name "*foo*.m" -follow -print

- typical file manager widget doesn't have these features.

Also, tab completion in shells ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command-line_completion ) is quite helpful/useful.

...

One has to understand that a strange ecosystem has been created and is sustained, the ecosystem consists of:

1) people who do not know command line;
2) people who say that command line is arcane, thus supporting ignorance of people in 1);
3) programmers writing GUI (often for money - in commercial companies) for people in 1).


Everybody in the ecosystem seems to be satisfied ( people in 1) have the GUI, people in 2) have audience, people in 3) have income or, at least, publicity), just the resources are squandered and efficiency suffers.



Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

delta
I'd like to put my two cents in on the matter. I use octave to get work done, I am a USER not a programmer. One problem that I have had with open\free software is that it is not built for everyone, but mostly for the people that write the code. Because I am an electrical engineer, I use software (free or not) to my advantage to make myself more profitable, my goal is to accomplish my tasks in the shortest time possible. I like software that I can sit down and use without knowing anything about it before hand, this saves me the most time, the time that I save can then be used to read other things like chip documentation ect. One thing that I find with open software is it is software written by programmers made for programmers. It is a trivial thing that comes from a programming background to install\use octave and install all of the packages. For what my time is worth, by the time I familiarize myself with all of octaves nuances I might as well have bought the equivalent commercial package, because my time is worth money. I might also add that the commercial version has very little bugs, which also saves me time. I do donate to open source projects, but only to the one's that I can use, find well polished and save me time.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso-2
On 19 December 2012 13:10, delta <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd like to put my two cents in on the matter. I use octave to get
> work done, I am a USER not a programmer.

But Octave and Matlab are programming languages. You can't use them
without being a programmer. What definition of "programmer" are you
using?

> I do donate to open source projects, but only to the one's that I
> can use, find well polished and save me time.

Note that Octave is not primarily "open source". It is free:

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

delta
Yeah, good point this could use some definition. When I say programmer I mean people who are actively involved in the creation of software and spend most of their time writing code, this is much different than someone who sits down at their computer and wants to download and use software. When you are intimately familiar with the inner workings of a program, there are not many things that bother you. If there is a bug then you can re-write the code (or talk with one of your buddies that does), if there is a function missing you can request it and write it yourself. While I would love to do these things, I do not primarily work with computer languages to produce software. I usually use C to develop firmware for embedded systems, which is vastly different from software creation in an object oriented language. I think there is a disconnect of people who produce the code for the program and those that use it in most 'free' software projects because once they get it to a working state that suits their purpose, then that is good enough for them.
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