Woctave-another gui front end

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
[snip]
> And by the way, what is this difference between "open source" and
> "free"? 
[snip]
> Stephen
>


Restriction/strings attached.

There is free as in beer, and free as in speech, and both.

GPL is the least free for users and the most protective for developers, by the way.

Regards,
  Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Montgomery-Smith, Stephen
On 12/20/2012 12:20 PM, Sergei Steshenko wrote:

>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>
> [snip]
>> And by the way, what is this difference between "open source" and
>> "free"?  
> [snip]
>> Stephen
>>
>
>
> Restriction/strings attached.
>
> There is free as in beer, and free as in speech, and both.
>
> GPL is the least free for users and the most protective for developers, by the way.
>
> Regards,
>   Sergei.

But when I have written what I consider to be open-source software, I
almost always release it under a BSD license.  So by your collective
definitions would it be accurate to say that all this time I have been
writing free software instead of open-source?

To put it another way - instead of correcting people who say
"open-source" by saying "no, its not open-source, rather it is free"
wouldn't it be better to say "yes, it is open-source, but more than
that, it is also free"?

Or are their parts of octave that are genuinely free but not open-source
(that is, binaries are available for free download with no strings
attached, but the source is not available)?

Or maybe the BSD license is also considered too restrictive?

By the way, I do greatly prefer a BSD license rather than GPL.  I do
agree with people who say GPL is overly restrictive.  On the other hand,
if other people want to release their software under GPL, I don't feel I
have a right to stop them.

Stephen

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Montgomery-Smith, Stephen
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Lindner-4
On 12/20/2012 07:38 AM, Wolfgang Lindner wrote:

> hi all,
>
> let me remember that it is possible to use
> the following new native Windows-GUI for Octave:
>
> http://mat.caminos.upm.es/octave/
>
> Only download the following 2 files:
>
> http://forja.rediris.es/frs/download.php/2796/Octave-UPM-R6-setup.exe
> http://forja.rediris.es/frs/download.php/2664/vcredist_x86.exe
>
> Then you will have a nice stable working GUI under Windows.
> Give it a try.

I just tried it out.  In my opinion it is a very nice piece of software.
 I will definitely be recommending it to my students in the upcoming
semester.

Thank you,
Stephen


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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by Montgomery-Smith, Stephen




----- Original Message -----

> From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On 12/20/2012 12:20 PM, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
>>>  To: [hidden email]
>>>  Cc:
>>>  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:09 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>
>>  [snip]
>>>  And by the way, what is this difference between "open source"
> and
>>>  "free"? 
>>  [snip]
>>>  Stephen
>>>
>>
>>
>>  Restriction/strings attached.
>>
>>  There is free as in beer, and free as in speech, and both.
>>
>>  GPL is the least free for users and the most protective for developers, by
> the way.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>    Sergei.
>
> But when I have written what I consider to be open-source software, I
> almost always release it under a BSD license.  So by your collective
> definitions would it be accurate to say that all this time I have been
> writing free software instead of open-source?
>
> To put it another way - instead of correcting people who say
> "open-source" by saying "no, its not open-source, rather it is
> free"
> wouldn't it be better to say "yes, it is open-source, but more than
> that, it is also free"?
>
> Or are their parts of octave that are genuinely free but not open-source
> (that is, binaries are available for free download with no strings
> attached, but the source is not available)?
>
> Or maybe the BSD license is also considered too restrictive?
>
> By the way, I do greatly prefer a BSD license rather than GPL.  I do
> agree with people who say GPL is overly restrictive.  On the other hand,
> if other people want to release their software under GPL, I don't feel I
> have a right to stop them.
>
> Stephen
>


According to my _biological_ understanding of freedom BSD license is more free than GPL.

Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS: http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .

Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

bpabbott
Administrator
In reply to this post by Francesco Potortì
On Dec 20, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Frankly, Octave is a beautiful piece of work, but  it suffers from
>> the Open Source mentality that you need to earn what you use.
>
> No, it suffers from the fact that no one has done it yet.  As soon as
> someone is motivated enough (e.g. by paying them), it will be done...
>
>>                                   This is
>> a piece of software which one cannot recommend to anyone at a decent
>> university where they have a budget, simply because the time to get it
>> to work is 3 or four days which is more than a Matlab license would
>> cost.
>
> Oh, no, that's on Mac only.

That's just not true.  Installing octave using a package manager is easy and convenient.  The only difference as compared to Linux is that everything is built from source (can consume time).

Ben
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by Montgomery-Smith, Stephen




----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On 12/20/12 07:36, Nicholas Jankowski wrote:
>
[snip]

>
> I tell people to use "google."  It is actually rather easy to have an
> octave window and a browser window open at the same time.  And google is really
> good at intelligent searching, even correcting your spelling mistakes.  You can
> type "matlab integrate" or "octave integrate" and read
> whichever documentation you think is better.  (In this case I personally
> preferred the octave documentation.)
>
> I think google is so good that even when I am using commercial software like
> Mathematica, I use google instead of the Help facility that comes with the
> program.  You get the same information, but the google/browser interface is
> better IMO.
>
> Stephen
>
>

/* whispering */

Tsss !

It's a very provocative thing to tell here. I'm afraid John will come out of hiding and suggest to rewrite 'lookfor' to become better than Google search technology.

Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso-2
In reply to this post by Montgomery-Smith, Stephen
On 20 December 2012 13:09, Stephen Montgomery-Smith
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> open source

   http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

Open source is intended to be a synonym for "free software" that
attempts to avoid speaking about the ethical reasons that drive many
of us like to develop free software, just like "nigger" is intended to
be a synonym for "African American" that attempts or attempted to deny
the humanity of the people it was referring to.

Synonyms do not always carry the same intentions.

- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso-2
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS: http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .

METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use, you
are neither.

- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----

> From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS:
> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .
>
> METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use, you
> are neither.
>
> - Jordi G. H.
>

Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from source. Download URLs:

http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz

, etc.

You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.

FSF does _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.

--Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso-2




----- Original Message -----

> From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
> To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On 20 December 2012 13:09, Stephen Montgomery-Smith
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  open source
>
>    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
>
> Open source is intended to be a synonym for "free software" that
> attempts to avoid speaking about the ethical reasons that drive many
> of us like to develop free software, just like "nigger" is intended to
> be a synonym for "African American" that attempts or attempted to deny
> the humanity of the people it was referring to.
>
> Synonyms do not always carry the same intentions.
>
> - Jordi G. H.
> _______________________________________________


GNU does _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.

--Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

bpabbott
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end

On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS:
http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .

METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use, you
are neither.

- Jordi G. H.


Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from source. Download URLs:

http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz

, etc.

You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.

Regarding open source, I think Jordi is correct.


Ben

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko


>________________________________
> From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
>To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:51 PM
>Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
>
>On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>>
>>From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
>>>
>>Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>
>>
>>>
>>On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS:
>>>>
>>http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .
>>>
>>
>>>
>>METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use, you
>>>
>>are neither.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>- Jordi G. H.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from source. Download URLs:
>>
>>http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
>>http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz
>>
>>, etc.
>>
>>You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.
>
>Regarding open source, I think Jordi is correct.
>
>
>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>
>
>Ben
>
>

FTA: "Generically, open source refers to a program in which the source code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its
original design free of charge, i.e., open.".

I have published URLs using which the general public can download METIS source free of charge. The URLs are _not_ of pirated SW kind.

Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

bpabbott
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:48 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end

On 20 December 2012 13:09, Stephen Montgomery-Smith
<[hidden email]> wrote:
open source

   http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

Open source is intended to be a synonym for "free software" that
attempts to avoid speaking about the ethical reasons that drive many
of us like to develop free software, just like "nigger" is intended to
be a synonym for "African American" that attempts or attempted to deny
the humanity of the people it was referring to.

Synonyms do not always carry the same intentions.

- Jordi G. H.
_______________________________________________


GNU does _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.

--Sergei.

If you use a term, you are expected to define it when it's definition/context isn't clear to the audience.

In this instance, see the link below.


Ben

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

bpabbott
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ________________________________
>> From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
>> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
>>> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>
>>> On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS:
>>> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .
>>>
>>> METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use, you
>>> are neither.
>>>
>>> - Jordi G. H.
>>>
>>> Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from source. Download URLs:
>>>
>>> http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
>>> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz
>>>
>>> , etc.
>>>
>>> You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.
>>
>> Regarding open source, I think Jordi is correct.
>>
>>
>> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>>
>>
>> Ben
>
> FTA: "Generically, open source refers to a program in which the source code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its
> original design free of charge, i.e., open.".
>
> I have published URLs using which the general public can download METIS source free of charge. The URLs are _not_ of pirated SW kind.
>
> Regards,
>   Sergei.

METIS is not generally available for use  for commercial purposes.  Hence, not open source.

Ben
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----

> From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>  ________________________________
>>>  From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
>>>  To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>  Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>;
> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:51 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Sergei Steshenko
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>>  From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
>>>>  To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>>  Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>;
> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>>  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>>
>>>>  On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>  Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS:
>>>>
> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .
>>>>
>>>>  METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use,
> you
>>>>  are neither.
>>>>
>>>>  - Jordi G. H.
>>>>
>>>>  Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from
> source. Download URLs:
>>>>
>>>>  http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
>>>>  http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz
>>>>
>>>>  , etc.
>>>>
>>>>  You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.
>>>
>>>  Regarding open source, I think Jordi is correct.
>>>
>>>
>>>  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>>>
>>>
>>>  Ben
>>
>>  FTA: "Generically, open source refers to a program in which the source
> code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its
>>  original design free of charge, i.e., open.".
>>
>>  I have published URLs using which the general public can download METIS
> source free of charge. The URLs are _not_ of pirated SW kind.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>    Sergei.
>
> METIS is not generally available for use  for commercial purposes.  Hence, not
> open source.
>
> Ben
>

The quoted sentence does _not_ mention commercial use. Open in this context means _not_ closed. I.e. one _can_ see the source.

So, if consider openness, (non) usage in commercial applications is irrelevant.


Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

bpabbott
Administrator
On Dec 20, 2012, at 4:06 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
>> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>;
>> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:51 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Sergei Steshenko
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
>>>>> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>;
>> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS:
>> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .
>>>>>
>>>>> METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use,
>> you
>>>>> are neither.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Jordi G. H.
>>>>>
>>>>> Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from
>> source. Download URLs:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
>>>>> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz
>>>>>
>>>>> , etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding open source, I think Jordi is correct.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ben
>>>
>>> FTA: "Generically, open source refers to a program in which the source
>> code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its
>>> original design free of charge, i.e., open.".
>>>
>>> I have published URLs using which the general public can download METIS
>> source free of charge. The URLs are _not_ of pirated SW kind.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>    Sergei.
>>
>> METIS is not generally available for use  for commercial purposes.  Hence, not
>> open source.
>>
>> Ben
>
> The quoted sentence does _not_ mention commercial use. Open in this context means _not_ closed. I.e. one _can_ see the source.
>
> So, if consider openness, (non) usage in commercial applications is irrelevant.

You are certainly welcome to define the terms you use so that you audience understands your intended meaning.

When you use terms differently than what is standard for the audience, I suggest you do so earlier so as to avoid the back and forth rhetoric.

Ben
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Montgomery-Smith, Stephen
In reply to this post by bpabbott
On 12/20/2012 03:01 PM, Benjamin Abbott wrote:

> On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> ________________________________
>>> From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
>>> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:51 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>> Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>>
>>>> On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at METIS:
>>>> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .
>>>>
>>>> METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial use, you
>>>> are neither.
>>>>
>>>> - Jordi G. H.
>>>>
>>>> Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from source. Download URLs:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
>>>> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz
>>>>
>>>> , etc.
>>>>
>>>> You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.
>>>
>>> Regarding open source, I think Jordi is correct.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>>>
>>>
>>> Ben
>>
>> FTA: "Generically, open source refers to a program in which the source code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its
>> original design free of charge, i.e., open.".
>>
>> I have published URLs using which the general public can download METIS source free of charge. The URLs are _not_ of pirated SW kind.
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Sergei.
>
> METIS is not generally available for use  for commercial purposes.  Hence, not open source.
>
> Ben


OK, I get it now.  "Free" versus "open-source" is not "BSD" versus "GPL"
as I originally thought it was (and as Sergei suggested to me it was),
but is actually a rather irrelevant in-house fight over semantics that
people get very energized about.

I'm still rather amazed that one of you compared "open-source" to a
racial epithet!

Anyway, I'll cease worrying about the distinction, and keep calling it
"open-source" just like I always have.  Please carry on your argument,
which from now on I'll stay out of.

Adios,
Stephen
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by bpabbott




----- Original Message -----
> From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On Dec 20, 2012, at 4:06 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
[snip]
> You are certainly welcome to define the terms you use so that you audience
> understands your intended meaning.
>
> When you use terms differently than what is standard for the audience, I suggest
> you do so earlier so as to avoid the back and forth rhetoric.
>
> Ben
>

It is easy.

Freedom is ability to act _without_ taking into consideration what other people say/demand.

In reality it rarely exists, so it's like limit in math.

I _am_ a part of the audience. I do _not_ accept GNU/FSF definition of freedom. There is _no_ formal requirement to accept FSF/GNU definition of freedom in order to become part of the audience.

By the way, when I mentioned METIS, I said it was not quite free. Still, since _I_ can use is _without_ asking permission and _without_ paying money, for _me_ it is free.

Regards,
  Sergei.

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Montgomery-Smith, Stephen
In reply to this post by Montgomery-Smith, Stephen
On 12/20/2012 01:00 PM, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:

> On 12/20/2012 07:38 AM, Wolfgang Lindner wrote:
>> hi all,
>>
>> let me remember that it is possible to use
>> the following new native Windows-GUI for Octave:
>>
>> http://mat.caminos.upm.es/octave/
>>
>> Only download the following 2 files:
>>
>> http://forja.rediris.es/frs/download.php/2796/Octave-UPM-R6-setup.exe
>> http://forja.rediris.es/frs/download.php/2664/vcredist_x86.exe
>>
>> Then you will have a nice stable working GUI under Windows.
>> Give it a try.
>
> I just tried it out.  In my opinion it is a very nice piece of software.
>  I will definitely be recommending it to my students in the upcoming
> semester.


Is there a simple way to get the octave-forge packages included in this
as well?  Or if not, do you plan to include it in the future?

It is just that next fall I plan to teach a course which involves
solving ODE's, and I would prefer to use ode45 than lsode so that Matlab
users and Octave users get the same experience.  I won't defend against
lsode probably having a superior algorithm than ode45.  But I will only
be solving really simple equations anyway.

Maybe octave-forge is included in the menus, but I don't know Spanish.
It is still very easy to use even if one doesn't know Spanish, but I
could be missing some of its finer points.

Thanks, Stephen
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by Montgomery-Smith, Stephen




----- Original Message -----

> From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> On 12/20/2012 03:01 PM, Benjamin Abbott wrote:
>>  On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>>  ________________________________
>>>>  From: Benjamin Abbott <[hidden email]>
>>>>  To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>>  Cc: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>;
> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>>  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:51 PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Sergei Steshenko
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>>  From: Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[hidden email]>
>>>>>  To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
>>>>>  Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>;
> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>  Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:30 PM
>>>>>  Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>>>>
>>>>>  On 20 December 2012 14:11, Sergei Steshenko
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>  Regarding open source but not quite free - have a look at
> METIS:
>>>>>
> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute .
>>>>>
>>>>>  METIS is not open source nor free. If you forbid commercial
> use, you
>>>>>  are neither.
>>>>>
>>>>>  - Jordi G. H.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Metis _is_ open source. I _do_ download it and build it from
> source. Download URLs:
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://www.netlib.org/linalg/metis-4.0.tar.gz
>>>>>
> http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/fetch/sw/metis/metis-5.0.2.tar.gz
>>>>>
>>>>>  , etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>  You do _not_ have monopoly defining what freedom is.
>>>>
>>>>  Regarding open source, I think Jordi is correct.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Ben
>>>
>>>  FTA: "Generically, open source refers to a program in which the
> source code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from
> its
>>>  original design free of charge, i.e., open.".
>>>
>>>  I have published URLs using which the general public can download METIS
> source free of charge. The URLs are _not_ of pirated SW kind.
>>>
>>>  Regards,
>>>    Sergei.
>>
>>  METIS is not generally available for use  for commercial purposes.  Hence,
> not open source.
>>
>>  Ben
>
>
> OK, I get it now.  "Free" versus "open-source" is not
> "BSD" versus "GPL"
> as I originally thought it was (and as Sergei suggested to me it was),
> but is actually a rather irrelevant in-house fight over semantics that
> people get very energized about.
>
> I'm still rather amazed that one of you compared "open-source" to
> a
> racial epithet!
>
> Anyway, I'll cease worrying about the distinction, and keep calling it
> "open-source" just like I always have.  Please carry on your argument,
> which from now on I'll stay out of.
>
> Adios,
> Stephen
> _______________________________________________
> Help-octave mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave
>

"OK, I get it now.  "Free" versus "open-source" is not  "BSD" versus "GPL" as I originally thought it was (and as Sergei suggested to me it was)" - huh ?


I said that to _me_ BSD is _more_ free than GPL because _less_ strings are attached.

The _truly_ free license is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL - _exactly_ because _no_ strings are attached.

Again, I do _not_ accept FSF/GNU definition of freedom _exactly_ because it contradicts my _biological_ sensation what freedom is.


Regards,
  Sergei.
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