Woctave-another gui front end

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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

John W. Eaton
Administrator
On 19-Dec-2012, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:

| But as to your first point, why do you carp quite so much on people who
| point out the lack of some feature, but don't have the time or abilities
| to contribute?  Maybe those other people are engaged in other worthwhile
| projects that are taking up their time, and maybe they even deal with
| complaints about their projects, but don't immediately jump down the
| other people's throats with "well, what have you done to help?"
| Especially when those people are not actually whining, but just asking
| or answering questions.

I can't speak directly for Jordi, but I think I've had similar
reactions in the past to people that seemed to be demanding something
for nothing, or who seemed to expect that I do some work for them, all
while they were telling me how the work I had already done was somehow
inferior.

Most of the feedback we get is negative (bug reports, complaints about
the things that don't work correctly, comments from people calling us
kindergartners, and so on).  In my experience, years of negative
feedback can wear you down and make you see even reasonable comments
and questions as attacks.  Maybe Jordi needs to take a break from the
list.  I know I did, and that's why I rarely post here now.

jwe
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----
> From: John W. Eaton <[hidden email]>
> To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
[snip]
> Maybe Jordi needs to take a break from the
> list. 
[snip]
> jwe
> _______________________________________________


Better from the project.

I truly don't want yet another disaster like forcefully imposed on users broadcasting breaking existing code.

I truly don't want another disaster like breaking 'struct' functionality (possibility to use any string key) - only protests from public forced him to revert the breakage.

Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Markus Bergholz
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton


Am 20.12.2012 23:25 schrieb "John W. Eaton" <[hidden email]>:
>
> On 19-Dec-2012, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>
> | But as to your first point, why do you carp quite so much on people who
> | point out the lack of some feature, but don't have the time or abilities
> | to contribute?  Maybe those other people are engaged in other worthwhile
> | projects that are taking up their time, and maybe they even deal with
> | complaints about their projects, but don't immediately jump down the
> | other people's throats with "well, what have you done to help?"
> | Especially when those people are not actually whining, but just asking
> | or answering questions.
>
> I can't speak directly for Jordi, but I think I've had similar
> reactions in the past to people that seemed to be demanding something
> for nothing, or who seemed to expect that I do some work for them, all
> while they were telling me how the work I had already done was somehow
> inferior.
>
> Most of the feedback we get is negative (bug reports, complaints about
> the things that don't work correctly, comments from people calling us
> kindergartners, and so on).  In my experience, years of negative
> feedback can wear you down and make you see even reasonable comments
> and questions as attacks.  Maybe Jordi needs to take a break from the
> list.  I know I did, and that's why I rarely post here now.
>

...the dark side of Open Source :)
But without doubt, we're all happy those projects exist!

> jwe
> _______________________________________________
> Help-octave mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave


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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Michael Goffioul
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




----- Original Message -----
> From: John W. Eaton <[hidden email]>
> To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
[snip]
> Maybe Jordi needs to take a break from the
> list. 
[snip]
> jwe
> _______________________________________________


Better from the project.

I truly don't want yet another disaster like forcefully imposed on users broadcasting breaking existing code.

I truly don't want another disaster like breaking 'struct' functionality (possibility to use any string key) - only protests from public forced him to revert the breakage.

Regards,
  Sergei.


Would it possible to create an octave-rant, octave-flamewar or octave-wtf-were-you-thinking-when-you-wrote-that-piece-of-crap mailing list and move the discussion over there? I was reading the title of the initial mail and the last comments and thought: I think we're a bit off track. Seriously, I think the last piece of interesting/helpful information in this thread dates from probably more than 50 posts ago...

Michael.


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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Francesco Potortì
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
Stephen Montgomery-Smith:
>> And by the way, what is this difference between "open source" and
>> "free"? 

Sergei Steshenko:
>Restriction/strings attached.

No, that's a wrong answer.

What is "open source software" is defined by the Open Source Initiative
(at <http://opensource.org/osd>), while what is "free software" had been
defined some years earlier by the Free Software Foundation (at
<http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>).

Both definitions are meant to partition the field of software licenses
into those that comply with the definition and those that do not, and
provide a reason for creating such a partitioning.

The partitioning is the same (i.e. software licences that are open
source are also free and viceversa), but the reasons are somewhat
specular.

Those speaking about free software claim that freedom is the purpose,
and convenience is a nice but not necessary consequence; while those
speaking abut open source claim that convenience is the purpose, while
freedom is a nice but non ncesessary consequence.

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
(entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Francesco Potortì
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
Sergei Steshenko:
>Metis _is_ open source.

No, this is wrong.

As you read at
<http://glaros.dtc.umn.edu/gkhome/metis/metis/faq?q=metis/metis/faq#distribute>,
Metis has restrictions on distribution (should ask permission before
distributing) and special restrictions on commercial distribution.  The
first goes against #1 and the second against #6 of the Open Source
definition that you find at <http://opensource.org/osd>, so Metis is not
Open Source Software.

As I explained in my previous mail, the same exact reasons explain why
it is not Free Software either (in fact, the two definitions identify
the same set of software licences).

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
(entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

edmund ronald
In reply to this post by Michael Goffioul
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 11:44 PM, Michael Goffioul
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> wrote:

> Would it possible to create an octave-rant, octave-flamewar or
> octave-wtf-were-you-thinking-when-you-wrote-that-piece-of-crap mailing list
> and move the discussion over there? I was reading the title of the initial
> mail and the last comments and thought: I think we're a bit off track.
> Seriously, I think the last piece of interesting/helpful information in this
> thread dates from probably more than 50 posts ago...
>
> Michael.
>
Actually, I feel I am allowed to tell them what I'd like in Octave
(GUI Builder, better packaging), and they're allowed to talk about
licensing while I pay casual attention.
If the result sucks / or the licensing sucks, I'll move over to
Matlab; some of us are here because of the licensing terms, because
frankly pirate Matlab is the strongets competitor to Octave.
Edmund
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by Francesco Potortì
----- Original Message -----

> From: Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]>
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith:
>>>  And by the way, what is this difference between "open source"
> and
>>>  "free"? 
>
> Sergei Steshenko:
>> Restriction/strings attached.
>
> No, that's a wrong answer.
>
> What is "open source software" is defined by the Open Source
> Initiative
> (at <http://opensource.org/osd>), while what is "free software"
> had been
> defined some years earlier by the Free Software Foundation (at
> <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>).
>
> Both definitions are meant to partition the field of software licenses
> into those that comply with the definition and those that do not, and
> provide a reason for creating such a partitioning.
>
> The partitioning is the same (i.e. software licences that are open
> source are also free and viceversa), but the reasons are somewhat
> specular.
>
> Those speaking about free software claim that freedom is the purpose,
> and convenience is a nice but not necessary consequence; while those
> speaking abut open source claim that convenience is the purpose, while
> freedom is a nice but non ncesessary consequence.
>
> --
> Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
> ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
> via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
> (entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it
> _______________________________________________


You are completely missing the point.

Maybe you'll get the point reading quite an interesting book - " The Guru Papers: Masks Of
Authoritarian Powe"
Joel Kramer and Diana
Alstad - http://www.amazon.com/The-Guru-Papers-Masks-Authoritarian/dp/1883319005 .

For Russian speakers: http://evolkov.net/cults/books/Kramer.J.Alstad.D/ .


Luckily, one can find excerpts from the original book online, e.g. http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :

"
If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without
question, but either punishes or refuses to deal with those who
do not, that authority is authoritarian.” (p.15)
".

So, I am making very clear: I do _not_ accept FSF/GNU authority.

I'd rather stick to: http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/maimonides_quote_4cb7 :

"
Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact
that the entire world agrees with it,
nor less so even if the whole world disagrees with it.
".

And to: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/maimonides.html :

"
Do not consider it proof just because it is written
in books, for a liar who will deceive with his tongue will not hesitate
to do the same with his pen.
...
You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes.
".

Again, let me explain: it does _not_ matter to me how many Octave developers call GPL free - according to my _biological_ pereception of freedom GPL is the _least_ free of licenses called free FSF. It does _not_ matter to me what RMS and/or EJR say on the matter.


Further from http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :


"
It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship
and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender.
Any of the following are strong indications of belonging to an
authoritarian group:

1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has
thoughts or feelings contrary to the accepted perspective is made
to feel wrong or bad for having them.
".

Again, let me explain: I do _not_ follow GPL party line. Neither I did follow the CPSU party line.


http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :

"
Traditional gurus teach what they were taught. Most gurus’
training in dealing with disciples is through example –
watching their own guru. They learn to recognize, reinforce, and
reward surrender, and to negate non-surrender. Aside from the
more tangible rewards, they reinforce devotion with attention
and approval, and punish its lack by withdrawing them. Though
some gurus say that doubts are healthy, they subtly punish them.
Doubt is not the way to get into the inner circle. Believing surrender
is essential for transmitting their teachings, some gurus could
be aware they are manipulating people to surrender, but think
they are doing so ‘for their own good.’ (If this were
in fact true, it would mean that deep truths are only accessible
via an authoritarian mode.) This can not only justify manipulation,
but also justify dissembling in order to eliminate people’s
doubts – all this being done in the name of fostering spiritual
growth
".

Again, let me explain: I do _not_ surrender to GPL indoctrination.


http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :

"
People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
questions
".

Again, let me explain: I am sick and tired of the "repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior, or beliefs". The _very_ typical behavior in this list is ideological indoctrination instead of addressing _real_ problems.


http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :

"
Gurus likewise do many things to ensure that their disciples’
prime emotional allegiance is toward them
"

- it's so boring to read GPL promotion here exactly as stated above.


http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :

"
Because of the nature of the relationship which demands total
surrender, gurus do exactly the opposite. They cultivate and reward
transference, for a parental type of authority is at the very
core of the guru’s power over disciples.

...

The person most at risk of being strangled by the images
demanded by the role of the guru is the guru. This includes the
great danger of emotional isolation. . . At the heart of the ultimate
trap is building and becoming attached to the image of oneself
as having arrived at a state where self-delusion is no longer
possible. This is the most treacherous form of self-delusion and
a veritable breeding ground of hypocrisy and deception. It creates
a feedback-proof system where the guru always needs to be right
and cannot be open to being shown wrong – which is where
learning comes from.
".


Having said all that I remind that I myself _did_ release some SW under GPL, and I do _not_ regret it, and maybe I'll release more in the future.

The reason is that I consider GPL to be a _protectionist_ license. It _protects_ me as a developer nominally forbidding closed source ripoffs. That is _exactly_ why I choose it.

But I do _not_ try to advertise GPL as free - exactly because it is the _most_ user limiting license of FSF approved ones, and presenting it as free would contradict my _biological_ perception of freedom and thus would constitute hypocrisy.

And maybe I'll write more on what is _really_ happening in GPL ecosystem.

...

Yet another _excellent_ example of guru tactics, authoritarianism and cult:http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-11-29/ayn-rand-was-not-libertarian.


Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

edmund ronald
the analogy between the various open/free advocates and gurus who wish
to found a church is quite interesting :)
every day brings its little moment of surprise.
thanks Sergei!

Edmund

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:29 AM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> From: Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]>
>> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>>
>> Stephen Montgomery-Smith:
>>>>  And by the way, what is this difference between "open source"
>> and
>>>>  "free"?
>>
>> Sergei Steshenko:
>>> Restriction/strings attached.
>>
>> No, that's a wrong answer.
>>
>> What is "open source software" is defined by the Open Source
>> Initiative
>> (at <http://opensource.org/osd>), while what is "free software"
>> had been
>> defined some years earlier by the Free Software Foundation (at
>> <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html>).
>>
>> Both definitions are meant to partition the field of software licenses
>> into those that comply with the definition and those that do not, and
>> provide a reason for creating such a partitioning.
>>
>> The partitioning is the same (i.e. software licences that are open
>> source are also free and viceversa), but the reasons are somewhat
>> specular.
>>
>> Those speaking about free software claim that freedom is the purpose,
>> and convenience is a nice but not necessary consequence; while those
>> speaking abut open source claim that convenience is the purpose, while
>> freedom is a nice but non ncesessary consequence.
>>
>> --
>> Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
>> ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
>> via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
>> (entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> You are completely missing the point.
>
> Maybe you'll get the point reading quite an interesting book - " The Guru Papers: Masks Of
> Authoritarian Powe"
> Joel Kramer and Diana
> Alstad - http://www.amazon.com/The-Guru-Papers-Masks-Authoritarian/dp/1883319005 .
>
> For Russian speakers: http://evolkov.net/cults/books/Kramer.J.Alstad.D/ .
>
>
> Luckily, one can find excerpts from the original book online, e.g. http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :
>
> "
> If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without
> question, but either punishes or refuses to deal with those who
> do not, that authority is authoritarian.” (p.15)
> ".
>
> So, I am making very clear: I do _not_ accept FSF/GNU authority.
>
> I'd rather stick to: http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/maimonides_quote_4cb7 :
>
> "
> Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact
> that the entire world agrees with it,
> nor less so even if the whole world disagrees with it.
> ".
>
> And to: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/maimonides.html :
>
> "
> Do not consider it proof just because it is written
> in books, for a liar who will deceive with his tongue will not hesitate
> to do the same with his pen.
> ...
> You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes.
> ".
>
> Again, let me explain: it does _not_ matter to me how many Octave developers call GPL free - according to my _biological_ pereception of freedom GPL is the _least_ free of licenses called free FSF. It does _not_ matter to me what RMS and/or EJR say on the matter.
>
>
> Further from http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :
>
>
> "
> It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship
> and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender.
> Any of the following are strong indications of belonging to an
> authoritarian group:
>
> 1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has
> thoughts or feelings contrary to the accepted perspective is made
> to feel wrong or bad for having them.
> ".
>
> Again, let me explain: I do _not_ follow GPL party line. Neither I did follow the CPSU party line.
>
>
> http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :
>
> "
> Traditional gurus teach what they were taught. Most gurus’
> training in dealing with disciples is through example –
> watching their own guru. They learn to recognize, reinforce, and
> reward surrender, and to negate non-surrender. Aside from the
> more tangible rewards, they reinforce devotion with attention
> and approval, and punish its lack by withdrawing them. Though
> some gurus say that doubts are healthy, they subtly punish them.
> Doubt is not the way to get into the inner circle. Believing surrender
> is essential for transmitting their teachings, some gurus could
> be aware they are manipulating people to surrender, but think
> they are doing so ‘for their own good.’ (If this were
> in fact true, it would mean that deep truths are only accessible
> via an authoritarian mode.) This can not only justify manipulation,
> but also justify dissembling in order to eliminate people’s
> doubts – all this being done in the name of fostering spiritual
> growth
> ".
>
> Again, let me explain: I do _not_ surrender to GPL indoctrination.
>
>
> http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :
>
> "
> People whose power is based on the surrender of others
> develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
> anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
> or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
> questions
> ".
>
> Again, let me explain: I am sick and tired of the "repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
> anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior, or beliefs". The _very_ typical behavior in this list is ideological indoctrination instead of addressing _real_ problems.
>
>
> http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :
>
> "
> Gurus likewise do many things to ensure that their disciples’
> prime emotional allegiance is toward them
> "
>
> - it's so boring to read GPL promotion here exactly as stated above.
>
>
> http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :
>
> "
> Because of the nature of the relationship which demands total
> surrender, gurus do exactly the opposite. They cultivate and reward
> transference, for a parental type of authority is at the very
> core of the guru’s power over disciples.
>
> ...
>
> The person most at risk of being strangled by the images
> demanded by the role of the guru is the guru. This includes the
> great danger of emotional isolation. . . At the heart of the ultimate
> trap is building and becoming attached to the image of oneself
> as having arrived at a state where self-delusion is no longer
> possible. This is the most treacherous form of self-delusion and
> a veritable breeding ground of hypocrisy and deception. It creates
> a feedback-proof system where the guru always needs to be right
> and cannot be open to being shown wrong – which is where
> learning comes from.
> ".
>
>
> Having said all that I remind that I myself _did_ release some SW under GPL, and I do _not_ regret it, and maybe I'll release more in the future.
>
> The reason is that I consider GPL to be a _protectionist_ license. It _protects_ me as a developer nominally forbidding closed source ripoffs. That is _exactly_ why I choose it.
>
> But I do _not_ try to advertise GPL as free - exactly because it is the _most_ user limiting license of FSF approved ones, and presenting it as free would contradict my _biological_ perception of freedom and thus would constitute hypocrisy.
>
> And maybe I'll write more on what is _really_ happening in GPL ecosystem.
>
> ...
>
> Yet another _excellent_ example of guru tactics, authoritarianism and cult:http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-11-29/ayn-rand-was-not-libertarian.
>
>
> Regards,
>   Sergei.
> _______________________________________________
> Help-octave mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/help-octave
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Sergei Steshenko




----- Original Message -----

> From: edmund ronald <[hidden email]>
> To: Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 2:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Woctave-another gui front end
>
>t he analogy between the various open/free advocates and gurus who wish
> to found a church is quite interesting :)
> every day brings its little moment of surprise.
> thanks Sergei!
>
> Edmund
>

You are very welcome.

It's not that I agree with everything in the book, but it is definitely an eye opener.

In the Russian translation of the book:

" А с потерей доверия к
себе тут же неизбежно приходится
равняться на какой-то посторонний
авторитет. ".



Translation back into English:

As one loses faith in him/herself, he/she inevitably has to use some outer authority as a role model.


In this list the indoctrination is high that even what GPL allows (linking with non-free SW, but _without_ distribution) was considered to be illegal, and RMS was called to support this false point of view - which he didn't.

I remind again and again - people use Octave to solve real problems - not to promote GPL.

So, if Octave developers want to attract more users, instead of scaring them to death with GPL and its strings attached better explain them how Octave can use there problems _despite_ strings attached to GPL.

And the _very_ first explanation should when it is allowed to link with non-free SW.

Regards,
  Sergei.
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Maynard Wright
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton

On Thursday, December 20, 2012 02:24:34 pm John W. Eaton wrote:

> On 19-Dec-2012, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:

> | But as to your first point, why do you carp quite so much on people who

> | point out the lack of some feature, but don't have the time or abilities

> | to contribute? Maybe those other people are engaged in other worthwhile

> | projects that are taking up their time, and maybe they even deal with

> | complaints about their projects, but don't immediately jump down the

> | other people's throats with "well, what have you done to help?"

> | Especially when those people are not actually whining, but just asking

> | or answering questions.

>

> I can't speak directly for Jordi, but I think I've had similar

> reactions in the past to people that seemed to be demanding something

> for nothing, or who seemed to expect that I do some work for them, all

> while they were telling me how the work I had already done was somehow

> inferior.

>

> Most of the feedback we get is negative (bug reports, complaints about

> the things that don't work correctly, comments from people calling us

> kindergartners, and so on). In my experience, years of negative

> feedback can wear you down and make you see even reasonable comments

> and questions as attacks. Maybe Jordi needs to take a break from the

> list. I know I did, and that's why I rarely post here now.

>

> jwe

> _______________________________________________

Like most folks, I suppose that I don't say very much until there is something to be concerned about. In the interest of correcting that, I will say that Octave has been very valuable to me and I much appreciate the efforts of those who have made it available.

Maynard Wright


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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Francesco Potortì
In reply to this post by Michael Goffioul
>Would it possible to create an octave-rant, octave-flamewar or
>octave-wtf-were-you-thinking-when-you-wrote-that-piece-of-crap mailing list
>and move the discussion over there? I was reading the title of the initial
>mail and the last comments and thought: I think we're a bit off track.
>Seriously, I think the last piece of interesting/helpful information in
>this thread dates from probably more than 50 posts ago...

I think that this list needs post-moderation.  Posters who often go
off-track or who often indulge in Octave bashing should be warned first
and temporarily disabled if they insist.  I volunteer for sharing such a
role with someone else.

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
(entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

Freddy Omar López Quintero

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that this list needs post-moderation.

I support strongly your proposal, Francesco. Would you like to open a new thread with this suggestion? 

It's too bored read the wise people from here fighting/disrespecting/imposing their opinion over the rest, whatever someone ask * about a GUI, where * is anything.

I think vinukn just want to know if someone of us have been used woctave.  I haven't. Our philosophical thoughts about etymological sense of the words, about people who uses GUI, about top posting, about God, etc, are out of topic, according his request.

Cheers to all.



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post-moderating this list

Francesco Potortì
I'll try to make this a more structured proposal.

In the last years, traffic on this least has increased, which is a good
sign.  However, discussions who used to be focused on Octave with very
rare off-topic threads are now often becoming tit-for-tats, annoying to
most of us and time-consuming for the developers.

I propose to introduce post-moderation.

For example, this can be implemented by having three post-moderators.
If two of three agree and the third one does not veto, a poster who goes
off-track or who indulges in Octave or free software bashing will be
gently and privately invited to stop after few offending posts.  If the
poster's behaviour does not change after the second warning, the
moderators will propose a one-month ban of the poster to the list
owners.

I volunteer to be one of the three moderators, or even a moderator for
some variation of the above proposal.

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
(entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it
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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

nrjank
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:24 PM, John W. Eaton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19-Dec-2012, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:

| But as to your first point, why do you carp quite so much on people who
| point out the lack of some feature, but don't have the time or abilities
| to contribute? 
...

I can't speak directly for Jordi, but I think I've had similar
reactions in the past to people that seemed to be demanding something
for nothing, or who seemed to expect that I do some work for them, all
while they were telling me how the work I had already done was somehow
inferior
...
Maybe Jordi needs to take a break from the
list.  I know I did, and that's why I rarely post here now.

jwe
_______________________________________________

All well and good John, but can we please get back to the all-important task of figuring out how to make lookfor outperform Google?  Priorities, man!  :) 

"When open source leads to open sores, free starts to get pretty costly."  -- can't remember where i read that

So, to at least partially defend any implication that Jordi is carping without cause, I work with an IRL origination that's run 100% by volunteers and serves a few hundred people. What you learn very quickly is that saying "hey, we could really use someone to do X" gets no response. Pointing to an individual and saying, "hey, would you be able to help with this one thing?"  many times gets a positive response, and generates a new volunteer, lowering the barrier for the next request to that person. similarly, even among volunteers, asking someone to take on a task, or even assigning a new task to a person (giving them the option to find someone else to delegate it, too.) will make things happen that often would lie dormant. It's also typically an effective response to the entitlement mentality some people take toward volunteer groups.

Apart from a few exceptions, Octave development is all voluntary. if someone wants something, they should be prepared to assist in getting it, or be comfortable waiting for it too happen 'some time'. Most of what I've seen is Jordi being frequently up front about the 'you want it? you can help fix it' approach.

nickj

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Re: post-moderating this list

Sergei Steshenko
In reply to this post by Francesco Potortì




----- Original Message -----

> From: Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]>
> To: Octave users list <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:13 PM
> Subject: post-moderating this list
>
> I'll try to make this a more structured proposal.
>
> In the last years, traffic on this least has increased, which is a good
> sign.  However, discussions who used to be focused on Octave with very
> rare off-topic threads are now often becoming tit-for-tats, annoying to
> most of us and time-consuming for the developers.
>
> I propose to introduce post-moderation.
>
> For example, this can be implemented by having three post-moderators.
> If two of three agree and the third one does not veto, a poster who goes
> off-track or who indulges in Octave or free software bashing will be
> gently and privately invited to stop after few offending posts.  If the
> poster's behaviour does not change after the second warning, the
> moderators will propose a one-month ban of the poster to the list
> owners.
>
> I volunteer to be one of the three moderators, or even a moderator for
> some variation of the above proposal.
>
> --
> Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
> ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
> via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
> (entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it


Your proposal is _very_ consistent with authoritarian guru-controlled structures behavior. From the link I recently posted:

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-11-29/ayn-rand-was-not-libertarian :

"
In a development eerily reminiscent of the organized hatred directed
against the arch-heretic Emanuel Goldstein in Orwell’s 1984, Rand cultists were required to sign a loyalty oath to Rand; essential to the loyalty oath was a declaration that the signer would henceforthnever read any future works of the apostate and arch-heretic Branden [Rand's number 2]. After the split, any Rand cultist seen carrying a
book or writing by Branden was promptly excommunicated.
"

- the "excommunicated" is/means banned.


And from http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :

"
People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
questions.” (p.66)
"

- yes, the status and _behavior_ (e.g. a burst of GPL propaganda instead of addressing the real problems) _is_ challenged, and you _react_ to this challenge.


I have a much more general and far going proposal.

I suggest to intensify work on GPL4, and the very first freedom granted by the license should be the obligation of GPL4 SW users to send to FSF and GNU a notary signed pledge of allegiance in support of FSF/GNU/GPL cause.

GPL4 should also grant unlimited discretionary irrevocable freedom to list owners to decide who violates the pledge of allegiance.


Regards,
  Sergei.

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Re: post-moderating this list

Michael Goffioul
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Sergei Steshenko <[hidden email]> wrote:




----- Original Message -----
> From: Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]>
> To: Octave users list <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:13 PM
> Subject: post-moderating this list
>
> I'll try to make this a more structured proposal.
>
> In the last years, traffic on this least has increased, which is a good
> sign.  However, discussions who used to be focused on Octave with very
> rare off-topic threads are now often becoming tit-for-tats, annoying to
> most of us and time-consuming for the developers.
>
> I propose to introduce post-moderation.
>
> For example, this can be implemented by having three post-moderators.
> If two of three agree and the third one does not veto, a poster who goes
> off-track or who indulges in Octave or free software bashing will be
> gently and privately invited to stop after few offending posts.  If the
> poster's behaviour does not change after the second warning, the
> moderators will propose a one-month ban of the poster to the list
> owners.
>
> I volunteer to be one of the three moderators, or even a moderator for
> some variation of the above proposal.
>
> --
> Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  <a href="tel:%2B39.050.315.3058" value="+390503153058">+39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
> ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B39.348.8283.107" value="+393488283107">+39.348.8283.107
> via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
> (entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it


Your proposal is _very_ consistent with authoritarian guru-controlled structures behavior. From the link I recently posted:

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-11-29/ayn-rand-was-not-libertarian :

"
In a development eerily reminiscent of the organized hatred directed
against the arch-heretic Emanuel Goldstein in Orwell’s 1984, Rand cultists were required to sign a loyalty oath to Rand; essential to the loyalty oath was a declaration that the signer would henceforthnever read any future works of the apostate and arch-heretic Branden [Rand's number 2]. After the split, any Rand cultist seen carrying a
book or writing by Branden was promptly excommunicated.
"

- the "excommunicated" is/means banned.


And from http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :

"
People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
questions.” (p.66)
"

- yes, the status and _behavior_ (e.g. a burst of GPL propaganda instead of addressing the real problems) _is_ challenged, and you _react_ to this challenge.


I have a much more general and far going proposal.

I suggest to intensify work on GPL4, and the very first freedom granted by the license should be the obligation of GPL4 SW users to send to FSF and GNU a notary signed pledge of allegiance in support of FSF/GNU/GPL cause.

GPL4 should also grant unlimited discretionary irrevocable freedom to list owners to decide who violates the pledge of allegiance.

Ok, you win. GPL/Octave is a dictature. Happy baby?

Now, can we please ban Sergei and move on?

BTW, Sergei, please note that you have plenty of other places on the internet where you can expose your opinion about the GPL. In a real dictatorial system, you wouldn't have any. And as you seem to like quotes, please also remember the saying: "your freedom stops where mine starts". Your freedom doesn't give you the right to do anything or to say anything (though it gives you the right to think whatever you like). If you think so, you're confusing freedom and anarchy.

Michael.


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Re: post-moderating this list

Freddy Omar López Quintero
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko

I think the aim of this proposal is not silence valid, genuine and nutritive comments of us.

Correct me if I wrong, please, but I think the point of this suggestion it is avoid some of us to be little polite with others because NO ONE in this world have the truth in his hands.

I'm nearly a tacit reader of this list until I read comments like: "your request does not matter for me because I think... etc etc etc". If to someone does not matter such stuff, it is better do not comment neither distract with reflexions out of the subject. And if this were the case, why be hostile, pretentious, pedantic, scandalous with others?

I think this is the real point.


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Re: Woctave-another gui front end

George Barrick
In reply to this post by vinukn
Re: Woctave-another gui front end

                      2012.12.21.16:48:46 UT

Hey guys,

      I'd like to second Maynard's comment.
I've found GNU Octave to be massively useful,
and I really appreciate the work that John,
Jordi and others have put into it.  I am not
a programmer/developer, but I also do not mind
reading to get myself oriented, and I really
like the conceptual simplicity of a text-based
interface.  The GUI _should_ be optional!

      Three cheers for the GNU Octave team,
and a blessed holiday to you all!

George                gbarrick_at_walsh_dot_edu


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Re: post-moderating this list

Montgomery-Smith, Stephen
In reply to this post by Sergei Steshenko
On 12/21/12 09:46, Sergei Steshenko wrote:

>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Francesco Potortì <[hidden email]>
>> To: Octave users list <[hidden email]>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:13 PM
>> Subject: post-moderating this list
>>
>> I'll try to make this a more structured proposal.
>>
>> In the last years, traffic on this least has increased, which is a good
>> sign.  However, discussions who used to be focused on Octave with very
>> rare off-topic threads are now often becoming tit-for-tats, annoying to
>> most of us and time-consuming for the developers.
>>
>> I propose to introduce post-moderation.
>>
>> For example, this can be implemented by having three post-moderators.
>> If two of three agree and the third one does not veto, a poster who goes
>> off-track or who indulges in Octave or free software bashing will be
>> gently and privately invited to stop after few offending posts.  If the
>> poster's behaviour does not change after the second warning, the
>> moderators will propose a one-month ban of the poster to the list
>> owners.
>>
>> I volunteer to be one of the three moderators, or even a moderator for
>> some variation of the above proposal.
>>
>> --
>> Francesco Potortì (ricercatore)        Voice:  +39.050.315.3058 (op.2111)
>> ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR          Mobile: +39.348.8283.107
>> via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa         Skype:  wnlabisti
>> (entrance 20, 1st floor, room C71)     Web:    http://fly.isti.cnr.it
>
>
> Your proposal is _very_ consistent with authoritarian guru-controlled structures behavior. From the link I recently posted:
>
> http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-11-29/ayn-rand-was-not-libertarian :
>
> "
> In a development eerily reminiscent of the organized hatred directed
> against the arch-heretic Emanuel Goldstein in Orwell’s 1984, Rand cultists were required to sign a loyalty oath to Rand; essential to the loyalty oath was a declaration that the signer would henceforthnever read any future works of the apostate and arch-heretic Branden [Rand's number 2]. After the split, any Rand cultist seen carrying a
> book or writing by Branden was promptly excommunicated.
> "
>
> - the "excommunicated" is/means banned.
>
>
> And from http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=250 :
>
> "
> People whose power is based on the surrender of others
> develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
> anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
> or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
> questions.” (p.66)
> "
>
> - yes, the status and _behavior_ (e.g. a burst of GPL propaganda instead of addressing the real problems) _is_ challenged, and you _react_ to this challenge.
>
>
> I have a much more general and far going proposal.
>
> I suggest to intensify work on GPL4, and the very first freedom granted by the license should be the obligation of GPL4 SW users to send to FSF and GNU a notary signed pledge of allegiance in support of FSF/GNU/GPL cause.
>
> GPL4 should also grant unlimited discretionary irrevocable freedom to list owners to decide who violates the pledge of allegiance.
>
>
> Regards,
>    Sergei.

Hi Sergei,

This is the octave-help mailing list.  It should be a place where people
ask technical questions about how to get octave to work properly in
their environment.  It should be a friendly place, something like the
front desk of a car mechanics shop.  You should feel greeted by friendly
people, with good people skills.  The grumpy mechanics, who might
otherwise be very talented, should be relegated to the back room.  We
should recognize that while they may be very important, and in some
cases do much of the real work, nevertheless they should not be in the
front office greeting customers.

Sergei - I do find a lot of your posts actually quite interesting.  But
let me suggest that octave-help is not the place to make your opinions
known.  Or rather, it is OK to make your opinions known, but maybe one
or two times is enough.

There are forums where people can argue about things like the legitimacy
of GPL licenses, and whether it is really free or not.  And your
comments about the inadequacies of the American education system have a
lot of merit.

But, please, let the octave-help people go.  If nothing else, just as a
matter of courtesy.  Just so that they can give and receive friendly and
helpful advice without a huge amount of noise in the background.

If this mailing list decides to ban people from the list for repetitive
obnoxious behavior, I have no problem with that.  If this were an
opinion group I would feel very differently, and I would defend your
right to state your points, even if I greatly disagreed with you.  But
this is not an opinion forum.  It is a help forum.

Best regards,
Stephen

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