free Matlab access?

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free Matlab access?

Jaroslav Hajek-2
hello,

during creation of my various contributions to improve Octave's
performance, I was often interested in how Octave performs compared to
Matlab. Though I have access to a machine with Matlab at Czech TU,
unfortunately the disk quota prevents me from compiling Octave on that
machine. Also, the Matlab version installed, 2007a is not quite the
most recent (though it's not bad). Technically I'm not a student of
CTU so negotiating a bigger quota is not that easy.
So I was just wondering if someone could easily set up a remote
account for me (or others) with access to Matlab and tools & space to
compile Octave? I think that such usage would even comply with a
research license (though it may not be the kind of research mw likes).

regards

--
RNDr. Jaroslav Hajek
computing expert
Aeronautical Research and Test Institute (VZLU)
Prague, Czech Republic
url: www.highegg.matfyz.cz
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Re: free Matlab access?

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
2009/1/22 Jaroslav Hajek <[hidden email]>:
> So I was just wondering if someone could easily set up a remote
> account for me (or others) with access to Matlab and tools & space to
> compile Octave?

I can't find the license text online (funny how they like to even hide
that too, eh?), but I'm pretty sure it forbids making the software
available over the network. "You agree to not sell, lease, or make
available over the network to third third parties" or some such
nonsense.

- Jordi G. H.
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Re: free Matlab access?

Wolfgang Schechinger
It should legally work when Matlab runs on a licensed machine und you just operate the screen of it on the remote computer.

Best,

Wo
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Re: free Matlab access?

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
2009/1/22 Wolfgang Schechinger <[hidden email]>:
> It should legally work when Matlab runs on a licensed machine und you just operate the screen of it on the remote computer.

Are you sure? Common sense dictates so, but copyright law and EULAs
are uncommon sense. We should check the actual text of the license to
see if it says anything about making available over a network, since
it could be risky to have an Octave developer infringe on the
Mathworks' copyright.

- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Re2: free Matlab access?

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
I knew that those hours spent trolling the debian-legal mailing list
would one day pay off... ;-)

2009/1/22 Jaroslav Fojtik <[hidden email]>:
> Here is a full licence agreement.

Gah, what a mess. Restricting freedoms is hard work!

> The MathWorks, Inc. Software License Agreement
[snip]
> 4. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS.  The License is subject to the express
>   restrictions set forth below. Licensee shall not, and shall not
>   permit any Third Party to:
>
[snip]
>   4.8. provide access (directly or indirectly) to the Programs via a web
>        or network Application, except as permitted in Article 8 of the
>        Deployment Addendum;

Alright, so no network use here, except that we have to check what
that Addendum says...

But we do have one other addendum that says...

[snip]
> The MathWorks, Inc. Software License Agreement - Installation and Use
> Addendum
[snip]
> This is an Addendum to The MathWorks, Inc. Software License Agreement
> (the "Agreement"), and the terms and conditions of this Addendum are
> incorporated therein.  Each capitalized term used herein and not defined
> herein shall have the meaning ascribed to it in the Agreement.
> 4. LICENSE OPTIONS AND DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING.
[snip]
>   4.3. Concurrent.  Except as specifically set forth in Section 4.4
>        hereof, the Concurrent License Option permits only the Network
>        Concurrent User Installation Type.
[snip]
> 5. INSTALLATION TYPES.
[snip]

>   5.3. Network Concurrent User.  The Programs may only be installed in
>        a central location on a single designated network server.
>        Licensee may have only as many Licensed Users simultaneously
>        operating a Program at any given time as the number of
>        Concurrent keys acquired for that Program, except in the case of
>        the Engine in which case the number of Program sessions running
>        at any one time is limited to the number of Engine workers
>        acquired.  Portions of the Programs may be installed on
>        individual computers to accelerate startup times, as long as the
>        installations on the individual computers are controlled by the
>        license manager on the network server.  Subject to the
>        foregoing, a Licensed User of the Concurrent License Option may
>        utilize any number of computers served by a single license
>        manager server provided that, before starting a Program session
>        on any computer, the Licensed User checks out a Concurrent key
>        from the license manager server for that computer, and that any
>        Concurrent Program sessions on each computer are not run on more
>        than two (2) separate processors on each computer.   Licensees
>        of the Concurrent License Option are prohibited from providing
>        Program access to users located outside the country in which the
>        license manager server is installed unless Licensee has
>        contracted for global use.  For the purposes of the Concurrent
>        License Option, all servers located in a member country of the
>        North American Free Trade Agreement ("NAFTA") shall be
>        considered located in the same country as those of the other
>        NAFTA members, and all servers located in Iceland, Norway,
>        Switzerland, or any member country of the European Union ("EU")
>        shall be considered located in the same country.

So maybe something like this could work for Hájek. However,

> THE MATHWORKS, INC. SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT - Deployment > Addendum
[snip]
> 3. NONCOMPETITION.  Licensee agrees not to use the Programs, Derivative
>   Forms, Generated Forms, or Program Components to make or distribute
>   its own or a Third Party's Application, a principal purpose of which,
>   as reasonably determined by MathWorks, is to perform the same or
>   similar functions as Programs licensed by MathWorks or which replaces
>   any component of the Programs.  Licensee shall not otherwise use the
>   Programs to compete with the products or businesses of MathWorks,
>   including by distributing Libraries, or any form of an entire Program
>   or a substantial portion of a Program.

Gah, this one looks really nasty. They're trying to make it illegal to
create Octave if you use Matlab!

I think our only hope is clean-room reverse engineering[1]... I
wouldn't put it past the Mathworks to try to sue Octave out of
existence if they discover that its lead developers are using Matlab
in order to develop Octave.

- Jordi G. H.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

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Re: Re2: free Matlab access?

Jaroslav Hajek-2
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I knew that those hours spent trolling the debian-legal mailing list
> would one day pay off... ;-)
>
> 2009/1/22 Jaroslav Fojtik <[hidden email]>:
>> Here is a full licence agreement.
>
> Gah, what a mess. Restricting freedoms is hard work!
>
>> The MathWorks, Inc. Software License Agreement
> [snip]
>> 4. LICENSE RESTRICTIONS.  The License is subject to the express
>>   restrictions set forth below. Licensee shall not, and shall not
>>   permit any Third Party to:
>>
> [snip]
>>   4.8. provide access (directly or indirectly) to the Programs via a web
>>        or network Application, except as permitted in Article 8 of the
>>        Deployment Addendum;
>
> Alright, so no network use here, except that we have to check what
> that Addendum says...
>
> But we do have one other addendum that says...
>
> [snip]
>> The MathWorks, Inc. Software License Agreement - Installation and Use
>> Addendum
> [snip]
>> This is an Addendum to The MathWorks, Inc. Software License Agreement
>> (the "Agreement"), and the terms and conditions of this Addendum are
>> incorporated therein.  Each capitalized term used herein and not defined
>> herein shall have the meaning ascribed to it in the Agreement.
>> 4. LICENSE OPTIONS AND DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING.
> [snip]
>>   4.3. Concurrent.  Except as specifically set forth in Section 4.4
>>        hereof, the Concurrent License Option permits only the Network
>>        Concurrent User Installation Type.
> [snip]
>> 5. INSTALLATION TYPES.
> [snip]
>>   5.3. Network Concurrent User.  The Programs may only be installed in
>>        a central location on a single designated network server.
>>        Licensee may have only as many Licensed Users simultaneously
>>        operating a Program at any given time as the number of
>>        Concurrent keys acquired for that Program, except in the case of
>>        the Engine in which case the number of Program sessions running
>>        at any one time is limited to the number of Engine workers
>>        acquired.  Portions of the Programs may be installed on
>>        individual computers to accelerate startup times, as long as the
>>        installations on the individual computers are controlled by the
>>        license manager on the network server.  Subject to the
>>        foregoing, a Licensed User of the Concurrent License Option may
>>        utilize any number of computers served by a single license
>>        manager server provided that, before starting a Program session
>>        on any computer, the Licensed User checks out a Concurrent key
>>        from the license manager server for that computer, and that any
>>        Concurrent Program sessions on each computer are not run on more
>>        than two (2) separate processors on each computer.   Licensees
>>        of the Concurrent License Option are prohibited from providing
>>        Program access to users located outside the country in which the
>>        license manager server is installed unless Licensee has
>>        contracted for global use.  For the purposes of the Concurrent
>>        License Option, all servers located in a member country of the
>>        North American Free Trade Agreement ("NAFTA") shall be
>>        considered located in the same country as those of the other
>>        NAFTA members, and all servers located in Iceland, Norway,
>>        Switzerland, or any member country of the European Union ("EU")
>>        shall be considered located in the same country.
>
> So maybe something like this could work for Hájek. However,
>
>> THE MATHWORKS, INC. SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT - Deployment > Addendum
> [snip]
>> 3. NONCOMPETITION.  Licensee agrees not to use the Programs, Derivative
>>   Forms, Generated Forms, or Program Components to make or distribute
>>   its own or a Third Party's Application, a principal purpose of which,
>>   as reasonably determined by MathWorks, is to perform the same or
>>   similar functions as Programs licensed by MathWorks or which replaces
>>   any component of the Programs.  Licensee shall not otherwise use the
>>   Programs to compete with the products or businesses of MathWorks,
>>   including by distributing Libraries, or any form of an entire Program
>>   or a substantial portion of a Program.
>
> Gah, this one looks really nasty. They're trying to make it illegal to
> create Octave if you use Matlab!
>

Hey, IANAL either, but my first defense would be stating that I'm by
no means using Matlab to make or distribute Octave! I'm developing
using ViM and distributing using Savannah.
In principle, I think anyone who developed a script improving on one
of Matlab's functions (and  there are hundreds of those) using the
Matlab's built-in editor did violate this clause, and more apparently
than (possibly) me.

> I think our only hope is clean-room reverse engineering[1]... I
> wouldn't put it past the Mathworks to try to sue Octave out of
> existence if they discover that its lead developers are using Matlab
> in order to develop Octave.
>

Again, by comparing Octave's and Matlab's speed, I don't develop Octave.


--
RNDr. Jaroslav Hajek
computing expert
Aeronautical Research and Test Institute (VZLU)
Prague, Czech Republic
url: www.highegg.matfyz.cz

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Re: free Matlab access?

Martin Weiser-4
In reply to this post by Jaroslav Hajek-2

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Jaroslav Hajek wrote:

> hello,
>
> during creation of my various contributions to improve Octave's
> performance, I was often interested in how Octave performs compared to
> Matlab. Though I have access to a machine with Matlab at Czech TU,
> unfortunately the disk quota prevents me from compiling Octave on that
> machine. Also, the Matlab version installed, 2007a is not quite the
> most recent (though it's not bad). Technically I'm not a student of
> CTU so negotiating a bigger quota is not that easy.
> So I was just wondering if someone could easily set up a remote
> account for me (or others) with access to Matlab and tools & space to
> compile Octave? I think that such usage would even comply with a
> research license (though it may not be the kind of research mw likes).
>
> regards
>
>
Hello,
what about supercomputers, clusters and grids? See http://meta.cesnet.cz 
If you are a member of any Czech university
(as a student or a staff), it seems to me that you should be able to
access it. It should be even available to the staff of the Czech Academia
of Sciences
AFAIK, Matlab is available on those machines.
I hope this helps.
Best,
martin w.
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Re: free Matlab access?

Jaroslav Hajek-2
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Martin Weiser <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Jaroslav Hajek wrote:
>
>> hello,
>>
>> during creation of my various contributions to improve Octave's
>> performance, I was often interested in how Octave performs compared to
>> Matlab. Though I have access to a machine with Matlab at Czech TU,
>> unfortunately the disk quota prevents me from compiling Octave on that
>> machine. Also, the Matlab version installed, 2007a is not quite the
>> most recent (though it's not bad). Technically I'm not a student of
>> CTU so negotiating a bigger quota is not that easy.
>> So I was just wondering if someone could easily set up a remote
>> account for me (or others) with access to Matlab and tools & space to
>> compile Octave? I think that such usage would even comply with a
>> research license (though it may not be the kind of research mw likes).
>>
>> regards
>>
>>
> Hello,
> what about supercomputers, clusters and grids? See http://meta.cesnet.cz If
> you are a member of any Czech university (as a student or a staff), it seems
> to me that you should be able to access it. It should be even available to
> the staff of the Czech Academia of Sciences
> AFAIK, Matlab is available on those machines.
> I hope this helps. Best,
> martin w.
>

Hi Martin,

this look interesting and quite easily accessible. Currently, I'm a
PhD student at cuni.
I also wonder whether they would be interested in installing Octave on
the cluster...

thanks

--
RNDr. Jaroslav Hajek
computing expert
Aeronautical Research and Test Institute (VZLU)
Prague, Czech Republic
url: www.highegg.matfyz.cz
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Re: Re2: free Matlab access?

David Bateman-2
In reply to this post by Jaroslav Hajek-2
Jaroslav Hajek wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>>> 3. NONCOMPETITION.  Licensee agrees not to use the Programs, Derivative
>>>   Forms, Generated Forms, or Program Components to make or distribute
>>>   its own or a Third Party's Application, a principal purpose of which,
>>>   as reasonably determined by MathWorks, is to perform the same or
>>>   similar functions as Programs licensed by MathWorks or which replaces
>>>   any component of the Programs.  Licensee shall not otherwise use the
>>>   Programs to compete with the products or businesses of MathWorks,
>>>   including by distributing Libraries, or any form of an entire Program
>>>   or a substantial portion of a Program.
>>>      
>> Gah, this one looks really nasty. They're trying to make it illegal to
>> create Octave if you use Matlab!
>>
>>    
>
> Hey, IANAL either, but my first defense would be stating that I'm by
> no means using Matlab to make or distribute Octave! I'm developing
> using ViM and distributing using Savannah.
> In principle, I think anyone who developed a script improving on one
> of Matlab's functions (and  there are hundreds of those) using the
> Matlab's built-in editor did violate this clause, and more apparently
> than (possibly) me.
>
>  
Lots of things are written in these type of contracts with the hope that
they might be applied in some jurisprudence..  I'd say most courts would
look unfavourably on a company trying to create a monopoly with a legal
trick like this to the detriment of their own costumers (ie removing all
chance of them going somewhere else)... I'm sure looking around it would
be easy to find case law that demonstrated that.. In any case I've never
signed any contract or even clicked a button saying I agreed to a
mathworks EULA, though I imagine the company I worked for did. I'd say
ignore this clause completely.

The clause about giving access to a third party I wouldn't ignore
however, as mathworks has a reasonable argument there. Its a situation
like a video rental store versus a video cassette bought in the local
supermarket. You can be sure the rental shop paid much more for their
copy to be allowed to rent it to others. Seems reasonable to apply the
same logic to software..

D.


D.

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