google groups and Usenet

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google groups and Usenet

Colin Ingram-3
I would love to be able to read the octave mailing lists through google groups.  I think this requires the octave mailing lists to be mirrored as a usenet group.  I am willing to sponser an attempt to create usenet groups for the mailling lists if there is sufficient want/need for this and if the mailing list maintainer would be willing to setup the mail-to-news gateway.  

questions:

Has there been any attempts to create octave usenet groups in the past?
What should the group name be?
General Comments?

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google groups and Usenet

John W. Eaton-6
On  8-Sep-2005, [hidden email] wrote:

| I would love to be able to read the octave mailing lists through google groups.  I think this requires the octave mailing lists to be mirrored as a usenet group.  I am willing to sponser an attempt to create usenet groups for the mailling lists if there is sufficient want/need for this and if the mailing list maintainer would be willing to setup the mail-to-news gateway.  
|
| questions:
|
| Has there been any attempts to create octave usenet groups in the past?
| What should the group name be?
| General Comments?

Have you looked at www.gmane.org?

jwe

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Re: google groups and Usenet

Colin Ingram-3
John W. Eaton wrote:

>On  8-Sep-2005, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>| I would love to be able to read the octave mailing lists through google groups.  I think this requires the octave mailing lists to be mirrored as a usenet group.  I am willing to sponser an attempt to create usenet groups for the mailling lists if there is sufficient want/need for this and if the mailing list maintainer would be willing to setup the mail-to-news gateway.  
>|
>| questions:
>|
>| Has there been any attempts to create octave usenet groups in the past?
>| What should the group name be?
>| General Comments?
>
>Have you looked at www.gmane.org?
>
>jwe
>
>  
>
Yes, unfortunatly google groups will only archive newsgroup that are
propagated through the world-wide usenet.  I think you can only get
gmane news from news.gmane.org.  At least I can't get gmane news from my
schools news server.  (I don't think I can...I have tried)

If people are happy with everything how it is I won't bother.  I am just
a big fan of the google groups interface and it is becoming quite
popular.  This would just be an additional way for people to gain access
to the mailing list + archives and could increase octaves visibility.

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Re: google groups and Usenet

Colin Ingram-3
In reply to this post by Colin Ingram-3
I'm sending this back to the lists.

[hidden email] wrote:

> It is very simple to set up a Google group.  It would take all of 3
> minutes.  Then, send out a letter to the mailing list telling
> everyone to join the google group.  Group name OCTAVE or OCTAVE USERS
> GROUP.  When you join a google group you can elect to receive all the
> posts as email or not....
>  
> I think all the gateways..usenets...etc... complications are unnecessary.
>  
> WDF

I don't want to create a new mailing list. (which I think is what this
procedure would do.) Nor do I think everyone on the list wants to send
their messages to two different mailing lists just for my benefit.

what I am thinking of is more along the lines of debian-user is set up
so that it is mirror as linux.debian.user and I can read it from google
groups without having the thousands of users sign up for google groups

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Re: google groups and Usenet

John W. Eaton-6
On  8-Sep-2005, Colin Ingram wrote:

| I don't want to create a new mailing list. (which I think is what this
| procedure would do.) Nor do I think everyone on the list wants to send
| their messages to two different mailing lists just for my benefit.
|
| what I am thinking of is more along the lines of debian-user is set up
| so that it is mirror as linux.debian.user and I can read it from google
| groups without having the thousands of users sign up for google groups

Do messages that are posted to the list from the google groups
interface also show up on the mailing list (i.e., you have a list ->
news gateway and a news -> list gateway)?  I think you would want
both.  The only problem I have with setting up a gateway like this is
that we currently require subscription to post.  How would that work
with a news -> list gateway?

On a related note, I'm interested in moving the lists from the current
location and having someone else manage them.  Is anyone interested in
helping with that?

jwe



-------------------------------------------------------------
Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.

Octave's home on the web:  http://www.octave.org
How to fund new projects:  http://www.octave.org/funding.html
Subscription information:  http://www.octave.org/archive.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: google groups and Usenet

Gerald Ebberink
In reply to this post by Colin Ingram-3

comp.soft-sys.math.octave
or
sci.math.octave

would be the most appropiate names I guess. But I think that if this is
will be done, theire should also be a link back to the mailing list,
this becouse not everybody knows how to access newsgroups.

Kind regards,
Gerald Ebberink

[hidden email] wrote:

>I would love to be able to read the octave mailing lists through google groups.  I think this requires the octave mailing lists to be mirrored as a usenet group.  I am willing to sponser an attempt to create usenet groups for the mailling lists if there is sufficient want/need for this and if the mailing list maintainer would be willing to setup the mail-to-news gateway.  
>
>questions:
>
>Has there been any attempts to create octave usenet groups in the past?
>What should the group name be?
>General Comments?
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
>
>Octave's home on the web:  http://www.octave.org
>How to fund new projects:  http://www.octave.org/funding.html
>Subscription information:  http://www.octave.org/archive.html
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  
>

--
Ing. ing. Gerald Ebberink
Research Technician

Kernfysisch Versneller Instituut
Rijksuniversiteit Groningen
Zernikelaan 25
9747 AA Groningen
The Netherlands
tel: +31 50 363 3518
lab: +31 50 363 3588
mob: +31 61 644 4242
fax: +31 50 363 4003


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Re: google groups and Usenet

David Bateman-3
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton-6
John W. Eaton wrote:

>On  8-Sep-2005, Colin Ingram wrote:
>
>| I don't want to create a new mailing list. (which I think is what this
>| procedure would do.) Nor do I think everyone on the list wants to send
>| their messages to two different mailing lists just for my benefit.
>|
>| what I am thinking of is more along the lines of debian-user is set up
>| so that it is mirror as linux.debian.user and I can read it from google
>| groups without having the thousands of users sign up for google groups
>
>Do messages that are posted to the list from the google groups
>interface also show up on the mailing list (i.e., you have a list ->
>news gateway and a news -> list gateway)?  I think you would want
>both.  The only problem I have with setting up a gateway like this is
>that we currently require subscription to post.  How would that work
>with a news -> list gateway?
>  
>

The reverse gateway should be no problem. The way to handle the
subscription issue with a usenet group is to have a moderation of the
group before accepting the posting. Posting would be held at the gateway
till they are moderated. I suspect this might be a lot of work if there
are a large number of junk postings, and I'm not sure there is automatic
software to deal with the spam.

Frankly, I see the technical issue as minor next to the issue of
moderation. So Colin if you want it, you're the moderator....

Regards
David


--
David Bateman                                [hidden email]
Motorola Labs - Paris                        +33 1 69 35 48 04 (Ph)
Parc Les Algorithmes, Commune de St Aubin    +33 1 69 35 77 01 (Fax)
91193 Gif-Sur-Yvette FRANCE

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Re: google groups and Usenet

Shai Ayal-2
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton-6
On 9/9/05, John W. Eaton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On a related note, I'm interested in moving the lists from the current
> location and having someone else manage them.  Is anyone interested in
> helping with that?

Can you please elaborate on the amount and type of work required ?

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Re: google groups and Usenet

John W. Eaton-6
In reply to this post by Gerald Ebberink
On  9-Sep-2005, Gerald Ebberink wrote:

| comp.soft-sys.math.octave

Uh, then why is the Matlab group comp.soft-sys.matlab instead of
comp.soft-sys.math.matlab?  For compatibility, I think Octave should
also be comp.soft-sys.octave or the Matlab group name should be
changed (:-).

jwe

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Re: google groups and Usenet

Gerald Ebberink
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:29:56 -0400
  "John W. Eaton" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On  9-Sep-2005, Gerald Ebberink wrote:
>
> | comp.soft-sys.math.octave
>
> Uh, then why is the Matlab group comp.soft-sys.matlab
>instead of
> comp.soft-sys.math.matlab?  For compatibility, I think
>Octave should
> also be comp.soft-sys.octave or the Matlab group name
>should be
> changed (:-).

matlab doesn't hold the standards;) Maple, Mathematica and
SciLab are all in the math. series.

kind regards,
Gerald Ebberink

--
Ing. ing. Gerald Ebberink
Research Technician

Kernfysisch Versneller Instituut
Rijksuniversiteit Groningen
Zernikelaan 25
9747 AA Groningen
The Netherlands
tel: +31 50 363 3518
lab: +31 50 363 3588
mob: +31 61 644 4242
fax: +31 50 363 4003

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Re: google groups and Usenet

Colin Ingram-3
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton-6
I just want to sum up the discussion so far.

1.  It seems that there is some interest in mirroring the mailing lists
as news although some people are happy reading the mailing list as email
and they don't see the point of doing this.  Others(me included) see a
benefit in providing many different ways to read the list so every can
choose which one is most convenient for them.

Currently you can read the lists as news through gmane, you can read the
lists a email, and you can access archives through the web or ftp.  It
was pointed out that what google adds to this is a fancy UI(which I like
and some people don't care for).  It was also noted that Nabble provides
something similar.

I would like to note that there is an increasing number of solutions for
reading mailing list as news and searching archives.  Currently I know
of gmane, google, and nabble and there will surely be more.  Each of
these are slightly different solutions that appeal to different people.  
If the octave mailing lists is set up as a monitored usenet group it
would be easy for 3rd parties to offer their services to whoever wants
to use it.  I think that this will increase Octave's visibility and the
work of setting up the usenet only has to be done once. (although the
mail to news gateway would have to be maintained)

2. There is some question about how the usenet group would be
moderated.  This seems like a big task and it was suggested that I take
on this role.  I think that there must exist some automated solution for
this since I doubt each and every message sent the debian mailing lists
(several thousand a month) is approved manually.  I will look into the
feasibility of automated moderation.

3.  JWE is looking to move the mailing list and is calling for a
volunteer to maintain it.  Some of us would like to know more about the
requirements for this job.




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Re: google groups and Usenet

Colin Ingram-3
In reply to this post by John W. Eaton-6
oh yeah I forgot

4.  comp.soft-sys.math.octave seems like the proper group name although
comp.soft-sys.octave may be approprient since mathlab is
comp.soft-sys.matlab.  It was pointed out that mathlab isn't holding to
the standard.

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Re: google groups and Usenet

John W. Eaton-6
In reply to this post by Shai Ayal-2
On  9-Sep-2005, Shai Ayal wrote:

| Can you please elaborate on the amount and type of work required ?

Here is how the lists currently work:

  * Handled by Smartlist (built on procmail).  Might be better to use
    MailMan so that we could have a web interface.  Some people have
    requested this, but I have no time to set it up.  If someone were
    to take over the job of managing the mailing lists, this would
    probably be something they could do.

  * To post, you must be a subscriber.  This cuts out most but not all
    spam (sometimes we see spam that appears to come from subscribers
    but is really just spam with faked From: lines).

  * Postings that come from people not subscribed to the lists are
    bounced to the moderator (currently just me, but would be better
    to share this job among several people so that vacations don't
    disrupt the mail from non-subscribers).  I generally bounce
    messages from non-subscribers to the lists, but will sometimes ask
    people who are posting frequently to subscribe, or I sometimes add
    them to the secondary accept list so their messages will be
    accepted even if they are not subscribed.  I don't know how you
    would manage this part if postings can come from usenet.

  * Spam filtering is also done on the lists using spamassassin.

  * Archiving and updating the HTML indices is done as the messages
    come in using some home-brew scripts.  These could probably be
    replaced by something more standard and better, but I don't have
    the time to investigate or implement.

  * Indexing (currently using glimpse, but there must be a better
    solution as the code I am using is no longer part of Debian).

  * The mailing list management and archiving must be performed with
    free software.  We can't afford to be locked in to some
    proprietary solution that might not be available to us in the
    future.

  * It is important that bug reports sent to [hidden email] are never
    dropped, whether they come from a subscriber or not.

jwe

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Re: google groups and Usenet

jswensen
In reply to this post by Colin Ingram-3
I actually use Firefox+Sage to view the mailing lists from gmane as RSS
feeds. I really like the interface.  You should try it out.

John

Quoting Colin Ingram <[hidden email]>:

> I just want to sum up the discussion so far. 1.  It seems that there
> is some interest in mirroring the mailing lists as news although some
> people are happy reading the mailing list as email and they don't see
> the point of doing this.  Others(me included) see a benefit in
> providing many different ways to read the list so every can choose
> which one is most convenient for them. Currently you can read the
> lists as news through gmane, you can read the lists a email, and you
> can access archives through the web or ftp.  It was pointed out that
> what google adds to this is a fancy UI(which I like and some people
> don't care for).  It was also noted that Nabble provides something
> similar. I would like to note that there is an increasing number of
> solutions for reading mailing list as news and searching archives.  
> Currently I know of gmane, google, and nabble and there will surely
> be more.  Each of these are slightly different solutions that appeal
> to different people.  If the octave mailing lists is set up as a
> monitored usenet group it would be easy for 3rd parties to offer
> their services to whoever wants to use it.  I think that this will
> increase Octave's visibility and the work of setting up the usenet
> only has to be done once. (although the mail to news gateway would
> have to be maintained)
>
> 2. There is some question about how the usenet group would be
> moderated.  This seems like a big task and it was suggested that I
> take on this role.  I think that there must exist some automated
> solution for this since I doubt each and every message sent the
> debian mailing lists (several thousand a month) is approved manually.
>  I will look into the feasibility of automated moderation. 3.  JWE is
> looking to move the mailing list and is calling for a volunteer to
> maintain it.  Some of us would like to know more about the
> requirements for this job.



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